Article 13 #saveyourinternet 2 pages: [1] 2
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 1:16:32 AM
Anyone else heard about the Article 13 https://www.cnet.com/news/article-13-europes-hotly-debated-eu-copyright-law-explained/ and how will it affect our work at Zazzle?
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 9:15:20 AM
Rewards4life wrote:
Anyone else heard about the Article 13 https://www.cnet.com/news/article-13-europes-hotly-debated-eu-copyright-law-explained/ and how will it affect our work at Zazzle?


That link appears to be dead. Here is another link.

It seems to me that humans are putting too much faith in the algorithm. In this case the algorithm is programmed to favor the corporation and censor the individual.

We are witnessing the beginning of the technological singularity and it is not pretty.

Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 9:24:11 AM
The problem for artists is completely out of hand and take down notices don't work. Putting hoster back in the hot seat is unavoidable.

I for one are fed up with endless take down notices for the same image over and over again. And Amazon showed they can manage a take down stay down, since they had the problem with phone cases and managed to eradicate the problem there entirely, while the problem in other department is not addressed or insufficiently addressed.


Doom sayers are exaggerating the situation with the article 13.
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 11:00:26 AM
Jerry Lambert wrote:
Rewards4life wrote:
Anyone else heard about the Article 13 https://www.cnet.com/news/article-13-europes-hotly-debated-eu-copyright-law-explained/, and how will it affect our work at Zazzle?


That link appears to be dead. Here is another link.

It seems to me that humans are putting too much faith in the algorithm. In this case the algorithm is programmed to favor the corporation and censor the individual.

We are witnessing the beginning of the technological singularity and it is not pretty.


Yep! And sadly if places like Amazon had taken Copyright infringement seriously instead of actually providing a means for it to be spread across the Amazon site maybe we wouldn't now be facing this kind of action.

I'm not arguing for this action just pointing out that self-regulation doesn't work when a company CEO just gives lip service to respecting Copyrights.

Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 12:29:38 PM
Jerry Lambert wrote:
Rewards4life wrote:
Anyone else heard about the Article 13 https://www.cnet.com/news/article-13-europes-hotly-debated-eu-copyright-law-explained/, and how will it affect our work at Zazzle?


That link appears to be dead. Here is another link.

It seems to me that humans are putting too much faith in the algorithm. In this case the algorithm is programmed to favor the corporation and censor the individual.

We are witnessing the beginning of the technological singularity and it is not pretty.



That is not the only singularity that is on the horizon but only a prelude.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 3:57:29 AM
Thanks for the link, Jerry!

I'm personally very worried about the consequences of this situation.

I've seen some analysis predicting that "user generated" platforms, like Zazzle, You Tube or even Pinterest won't be able to allow uploading content from people like us, due to the greater risk of being sued.

It will be easier for them to only accept files from "trustworthy" source (so companies like Disney), instead of being liable for everything else.

Also, the language used in this proposition is purposely vague, to give companies room to claim ownership of the content more easily.

I'd love to hear what is Zazzle's plan of action if the article goes through.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 9:58:21 AM
Rewards4life wrote:

I've seen some analysis predicting that "user generated" platforms, like Zazzle, You Tube or even Pinterest won't be able to allow uploading content from people like us, due to the greater risk of being sued.

It will be easier for them to only accept files from "trustworthy" source (so companies like Disney), instead of being liable for everything else.

Yeah, that would basically kill Zazzle. The only approach for many websites to survive would be to begin geo-blocking countries in the EU. If logistics were to become a widespread problem for content, just as for any other product, people will look elsewhere.

I get a lot of sales from EU countries, especially the UK, but if the cost of complying with Article 13 exceeded the loss of sales to the EU for Zazzle then geo-blocking would be the optimal economical solution. If enough major American platforms begin blocking EU states from access it might cause resistance and backlash within the EU, possibly even causing countries to leave the EU. Apparently the United Kingdom is already due to leave the EU in March of 2019.

I believe that Youtube and Facebook are already compliant, but they can afford to be. Either way, content creators are already leaving both of those platforms in droves because of censorship.

Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 10:36:39 AM
Jerry Lambert wrote:
Rewards4life wrote:

I've seen some analysis predicting that "user generated" platforms, like Zazzle, You Tube or even Pinterest won't be able to allow uploading content from people like us, due to the greater risk of being sued.

It will be easier for them to only accept files from "trustworthy" source (so companies like Disney), instead of being liable for everything else.

Yeah, that would basically kill Zazzle. The only approach for many websites to survive would be to begin geo-blocking countries in the EU. If logistics were to become a widespread problem for content, just as for any other product, people will look elsewhere.

I get a lot of sales from EU countries, especially the UK, but if the cost of complying with Article 13 exceeded the loss of sales to the EU for Zazzle then geo-blocking would be the optimal economical solution. If enough major American platforms begin blocking EU states from access it might cause resistance and backlash within the EU, possibly even causing countries to leave the EU. Apparently the United Kingdom is already due to leave the EU in March of 2019.

I believe that Youtube and Facebook are already compliant, but they can afford to be. Either way, content creators are already leaving both of those platforms in droves because of censorship.



You are aware that zazzle lost a case in the US and that for zazzle the EU rule is US reality!? Zazzle is liable for the infringements of their users as is any other print on demand service that produces and sells items themselves according to rulings in federal court.

As I mentioned before the doom-sayer are exaggerating.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 11:16:39 AM
Here we go again worrying about European laws in the US. Fortunately the US is not part of the EU.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 11:21:36 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
Here we go again worrying about European laws in the US. Fortunately the US is not part of the EU.

Amen.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 11:26:33 AM
vivendulies wrote:

You are aware that zazzle lost a case in the US and that for zazzle the EU rule is US reality!? Zazzle is liable for the infringements of their users as is any other print on demand service that produces and sells items themselves according to rulings in federal court.

As I mentioned before the doom-sayer are exaggerating.

Of course Zazzle, as well as any other US platform, is liable for IP infringements. In the US we have laws in place, such as the DMCA and HR 3261 etc.. But we weren't talking about the IP laws themselves. IP laws are a good thing... for the most part.

What we are talking about is the potential for censorship and the cost for companies to comply as defined by the wording of the proposition. It seems that the only way for many platforms to comply is for them to implement expensive filtering technology which would give an advantage to major corporations and a disadvantage to smaller companies and individuals while also censoring expression through the threat of legal sanction. Not to mention the fact that currently the best content matching algorithms just do not work properly. And freedom of expression should never be determined by a machine.

It isn't "doom-saying" if the comet is actually headed for us. Whether or not it is going to directly impact Zazzle, or us as individual content creators, is yet to be determined. While we very well may be overreacting there is nothing wrong with thinking proactively.

Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
Here we go again worrying about European laws in the US. Fortunately the US is not part of the EU.

Right, but if Zazzle has a presence in the EU states they must comply with their laws.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 12:02:21 PM
Jerry Lambert wrote:
vivendulies wrote:



[quote=Shelli Fitzpatrick]Here we go again worrying about European laws in the US. Fortunately the US is not part of the EU.

Right, but if Zazzle has a presence in the EU states they must comply with their laws.


Since they are not physically in the EU (or won't be after Brexit) does this still apply, I wonder? or if so would it only apply to EU domains and maybe not to the .com?
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 12:27:54 PM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

Since they are not physically in the EU (or won't be after Brexit) does this still apply, I wonder? or if so would it only apply to EU domains and maybe not to the .com?

It affects YouTube, Facebook and Twitter which are all American companies. It is possible that it may only directly apply to companies with servers in the EU and uploaders in the EU. But platforms could, and probably will, block content from American and other creators and artists to users in the EU.

Here is the Youtube Creators official response to it. Skip to 2:10 for how it affects non-EU creators and artists.

Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 12:34:56 PM
Jerry Lambert wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

Since they are not physically in the EU (or won't be after Brexit) does this still apply, I wonder? or if so would it only apply to EU domains and maybe not to the .com?

It affects YouTube, Facebook and Twitter which are all American companies. It is possible that it may only directly apply to companies with servers in the EU and uploaders in the EU. But platforms could, and probably will, block content from American and other creators and artists to users in the EU.

Here is the Youtube Creators official response to it. Skip to 2:10 for how it affects non-EU creators and artists.



Thanks Jerry.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 5:24:55 PM
Just watched that and it sounds like very bad news for EU. It could impact us as well by limiting our audience.

People, especially in the EU, need to protest. I shared that YouTube to my Twitter page.

I would hate to see this become a precedent and a trend.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 8:36:30 PM
Jerry Lambert wrote:
vivendulies wrote:

You are aware that zazzle lost a case in the US and that for zazzle the EU rule is US reality!? Zazzle is liable for the infringements of their users as is any other print on demand service that produces and sells items themselves according to rulings in federal court.

As I mentioned before the doom-sayer are exaggerating.

Of course Zazzle, as well as any other US platform, is liable for IP infringements. In the US we have laws in place, such as the DMCA and HR 3261 etc.. But we weren't talking about the IP laws themselves. IP laws are a good thing... for the most part.

What we are talking about is the potential for censorship and the cost for companies to comply as defined by the wording of the proposition. It seems that the only way for many platforms to comply is for them to implement expensive filtering technology which would give an advantage to major corporations and a disadvantage to smaller companies and individuals while also censoring expression through the threat of legal sanction. Not to mention the fact that currently the best content matching algorithms just do not work properly. And freedom of expression should never be determined by a machine.

It isn't "doom-saying" if the comet is actually headed for us. Whether or not it is going to directly impact Zazzle, or us as individual content creators, is yet to be determined. While we very well may be overreacting there is nothing wrong with thinking proactively.

Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
Here we go again worrying about European laws in the US. Fortunately the US is not part of the EU.

Right, but if Zazzle has a presence in the EU states they must comply with their laws.


There is the safe harbor in the US as well as in Europe. And the demand for take down stay down resulting in liability is the gloomy threat for said imagined raging censorship. So my argument applies. Zazzle already would have good reasons for a strict censorship, since liability looms over their heads.

It's not that hoster are liable the moment the content is up, just after they were notified and the upload is up after that again and again.

I'm sure if the uploader obscures the content to the point that filter can't recognize the file as a repeated infringement, the court will understand. After all currently the court sides with hosters against artists all the time even if it is appalling obvious that the hoster is not doing his due diligent.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 8:47:36 PM
vivendulies wrote:


There is the safe harbor in the US as well as in Europe. And the demand for take down stay down resulting in liability is the gloomy threat for said imagined raging censorship. So my argument applies. Zazzle already would have good reasons for a strict censorship, since liability looms over their heads.

It's not that hoster are liable the moment the content is up, just after they were notified and the upload is up after that again and again.

I'm sure if the uploader obscures the content to the point that filter can't recognize the file as a repeated infringement, the court will understand. After all currently the court sides with hosters against artists all the time even if it is appalling obvious that the hoster is not doing his due diligent.


Yeah, it is a double edged sword, to be sure.

I also agree that Zazzle already has pretty strict policies in place when it comes to IP, but if they have to sink more money into the policing of it, that could prove detrimental.

I am concerned with the censorship aspect of it more than anything else. That is a very important aspect of it in my humble opinion.

What the EU is doing isn't far from what China has done. Can you tell me the last sale that you had to China? The reason for that is 100% about censorship .

Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 9:41:42 PM
Jerry Lambert wrote:
vivendulies wrote:


There is the safe harbor in the US as well as in Europe. And the demand for take down stay down resulting in liability is the gloomy threat for said imagined raging censorship. So my argument applies. Zazzle already would have good reasons for a strict censorship, since liability looms over their heads.

It's not that hoster are liable the moment the content is up, just after they were notified and the upload is up after that again and again.

I'm sure if the uploader obscures the content to the point that filter can't recognize the file as a repeated infringement, the court will understand. After all currently the court sides with hosters against artists all the time even if it is appalling obvious that the hoster is not doing his due diligent.


Yeah, it is a double edged sword, to be sure.

I also agree that Zazzle already has pretty strict policies in place when it comes to IP, but if they have to sink more money into the policing of it, that could prove detrimental.

I am concerned with the censorship aspect of it more than anything else. That is a very important aspect of it in my humble opinion.

What the EU is doing isn't far from what China has done. Can you tell me the last sale that you had to China? The reason for that is 100% about censorship .



That's just it, all that is asked in article 13 already exists. There are filter in place. Amazon primarily uses them for promoting infringements by asking their customers to use their app to find products cheaper on their site then on the site with the original.

YouTube has filter in place that drive youTuber nuts when uploading videos with music from legit sources. Pros test uploads via black screen with music to check them against the youTube filter.

And courts will still side with hosters when in doubt and even when not but the hoster is insanely rich and the artist is just some poor shmock.


That hoster don't want this article is obvious and thats why they started a
little propaganda which far to many swallow.

And with print on demand services you have real life examples that the business model is not endangered. Because Zazzle is already in this situation.

YouTubes biggest asset is their user base. If they reduce their service to big broadcaster, they are no better than hulu or netflix and netflix would be the bigger and better service. So I highly doubt youTube will stifle their community with overzealous censorship.

The same goes for any other social media service.
Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 11:21:36 PM
Yeah, I get it. Either way, the artist is screwed. I just wish that for once it would lean toward our side.
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 4:03:31 AM
I'd love to know what is Zazzle's contingency plan. I simply don't want to wake up one day (I think in January is the final vote) to an email "we can't host your work anymore", as this is my main source of income.Crying
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 5:52:45 AM
vivendulies wrote:


And with print on demand services you have real life examples that the business model is not endangered. Because Zazzle is already in this situation.




Yes. That's why I'm not worried about this. Zazzle already exceeds what would be mandated by this. I don't see how they would have to sink more money into filtering software since what they've got right now is pretty zealous about take downs.



I predict the only people negatively impacted by this are the ones who should be negatively impacted, the thieves. We've all seen our work- and sometimes our titles and Zazzle's literal product screenshots- for sale on Amazon. If this forces Amazon to end that, I'm all for it.
Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 6:33:31 AM
Jerry Lambert wrote:


Here is the Youtube Creators official response to it. Skip to 2:10 for how it affects non-EU creators and artists.





I watched the whole video. Their fear is that YouTube content creators will no longer be able to use copyright protected clips in their videos. This will negatively affect youtubers who do movie reviews or music video mashups or homages (as they had done in their examples). I can see why they are very upset by that. But those things are off the table already at Zazzle.



Zazzle might geo-block the UK but I doubt it. Their filtering software is quite robust, as many "why was this taken down???" threads can testify.



One thing I am confident Zazzle is not going to do is turn themselves into purveyors of nothing but blanks and officially licensed designs. A significant chunk of their business seems to be paper: greetings cards, invitations, business cards and all the paper frippery that goes with weddings. Customers are unlikely to start designing their own invitations. It is just too laborious. There are currently only 1,305 officially licensed invitations (mostly for children's birthday parties by Disney and Sesame Street) out of a total of 807,528 invitations. I am honestly not worried about that.


One thing this might do, overall, is drive up the market for filtering software. That could drive down the price, making it viable for very small companies.


There is much talk of stifling creativity (if copyright protected clips are off the table, for instance). But creativity has a way of adapting smoothly to market forces. Here at Zazzle, the explosion of vintage designs (which I participate in, thank you Gutenberg Project and New York Public Library) is driven in large part by the fact that it is public domain. Yes, the customers want it. But I think a happy feedback loop has been created. Public domain vintage images are allowed so designers use them and use them creatively which the customers like so the designers use them more. I think a similar creative adapation will happen with article 13. Creative people will figure out ways to adapt. The movie "Be Kind, Rewind" explored that to hilarious effect. What I don't think will happen is the end of user generated content. It's just too big of a market and audience.
Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 3:56:37 PM
Hi guys!

Thanks for all your comments. We're definitely aware of this and our Legal team has been looking into what repercussions, if any, we can expect if the current verbiage passes. Please know that we're on it and we'll be back to you as we know more.

Best,

Susan
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 4:09:42 PM
Susannah Keegan wrote:
vivendulies wrote:


And with print on demand services you have real life examples that the business model is not endangered. Because Zazzle is already in this situation.




Yes. That's why I'm not worried about this. Zazzle already exceeds what would be mandated by this. I don't see how they would have to sink more money into filtering software since what they've got right now is pretty zealous about take downs.



I predict the only people negatively impacted by this are the ones who should be negatively impacted, the thieves. We've all seen our work- and sometimes our titles and Zazzle's literal product screenshots- for sale on Amazon. If this forces Amazon to end that, I'm all for it.


I'm all for it, too, if it stops the theft!

Susan, thanks for the heads up.
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 4:54:52 PM
Susannah Keegan wrote:

I predict the only people negatively impacted by this are the ones who should be negatively impacted, the thieves. We've all seen our work- and sometimes our titles and Zazzle's literal product screenshots- for sale on Amazon. If this forces Amazon to end that, I'm all for it.

All artists and content creators could be negatively impacted by this, especially those in the EU. The only way for this to benefit you at Amazon, or any other platform, would be if you have copyrighted all of your designs and submitted them to the database of copyrighted material and they have been accepted.
Susannah Keegan wrote:

I watched the whole video. Their fear is that YouTube content creators will no longer be able to use copyright protected clips in their videos. This will negatively affect youtubers who do movie reviews or music video mashups or homages (as they had done in their examples). I can see why they are very upset by that. But those things are off the table already at Zazzle.

That video was created by Youtube. That is why it focused on Youtube content creators. If you create your own designs, artwork, videos, audio etc. and publish them anywhere, including Zazzle, then the same applies to you.
Susannah Keegan wrote:

There is much talk of stifling creativity (if copyright protected clips are off the table, for instance). But creativity has a way of adapting smoothly to market forces. Here at Zazzle, the explosion of vintage designs (which I participate in, thank you Gutenberg Project and New York Public Library) is driven in large part by the fact that it is public domain. Yes, the customers want it. But I think a happy feedback loop has been created. Public domain vintage images are allowed so designers use them and use them creatively which the customers like so the designers use them more.

Creative Commons and public domain stands to suffer the most under Article 13 as upload filters won’t be able to tell the difference between copyright infringement and permitted uses of copyrighted works under limitations and exceptions.
Karen Coffelt wrote:

I'm all for it, too, if it stops the theft!

Only it isn't designed to stop theft on the level of the independent artist or content creator, it is designed to suppress them in favor of copyright trolls and corporations. Again, in order for Article 13 to protect your work you would need to copyright everything that you create and/or publish and submit it to the database of copyrighted material for the filters to have access to it. Then a machine will determine what is infringing. And machines are pretty dumb at this point.

I am probably not personally going to be affected by this at Zazzle unless Zazzle decides to geoblock the EU and then I would lose a lot of sales. I create my own designs. I use very few public domain images. Anyone who does use public domain and Creative Commons might have a reason to worry. We won't really know until it goes into effect. However, product design isn't my only creative outlet, I am vehemently against censorship and I do not trust any algorithm.

Susan wrote:
Hi guys!

Thanks for all your comments. We're definitely aware of this and our Legal team has been looking into what repercussions, if any, we can expect if the current verbiage passes. Please know that we're on it and we'll be back to you as we know more.

Best,

Susan


Thanks, Susan. Roses
Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 5:59:11 AM
Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 6:49:33 AM
Just wrote this in another thread. No matter what the bureaucrats says, it is a danger and it will de facto cut off the European Union from the Free Web. With heavy impacts on EU citizens. Guaranteed.

Today the European Parliament gives the last vote on the new EU copyright laws. If it passes as is, with art. 13 and 11 becoming law (the famous meme-laws, which - resumed - will held web companies liable for uploaded content of their users), be prepared for nasty upload filters, limitations and exponentially rising no-go tags and content, especially for EU designers (depending on how Zazzle handles the situation).

The laws are meant to hurt YT, FB and the other bigs, but de facto the paragraphs are written that squishy (as usual), that they will be interpretable and affect practically all, from small bloggers (they say it will not affect them, but we know how this works) to bigs to POD companies, content creators, artists, whoever and wherever they are located (in Western countries, because Chinese and Russians will laugh at them), unless they either limit their access and services or completely block the whole EU area.

For EU citizens it means, we can get ready to use VPN in future, to get access to the free web - as Chinese and Iranians (and residents of other questionable countries) have to. For EU creators such as Youtubers and artists/designers it can get even worse, with limitations on their accounts or even cancellation. What would mean, that we will have to rely on intermediates, partners or offshore companies located outside the EU (e.g. in the States), to continue our businesses. No idea what happens here on zazzle, it all depends as said how they handle the situation and how critical it will be. Fact is, that the GDPR law has already caused a lot of US websites being no longer accessible within the EU.

The intention of the web was to interconnect the world, what worked pretty fine in the beginning. Now it's turning more and more back into a national construct with borders and limitations and censorship.
Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 7:08:27 AM
Rewards4life wrote:

Oh well. Of course it had to go through with all these clueless bureaucrats in Brussels. VPN services will enter their Golden Age now, with the EU joining China, Iran and all these lovely free countries.

I predict only negative effects. Starting with many smaller and medium sized US companies limiting or blocking access to their services and pages for EU citizens, making it mandatory for us Europeans to use VPN and ending with EU youtubers, creatives, startups and even social media users facing tons of troubles and hassles and limitations and account shut downs. Guaranteed. This all accompanied with a huge loss of e-commerce revenues. And zero benefits for the big European news publishers which initiated that abomination.

I really hope now, Google will immediately counter attack and shut down all free editorial links / search results on their search engine pointing to all the big EU news publishers. Let's see how long this law lasts with art. 11 and 13 in this release, when the big EU media companies face a free fall in ad revenues and site visitors and have to pay to get their articles listed on Google. Google has already shown how it can end for them in Spain and even Germany with the Bild. Can't wait for their big awakening. Please, Google, please, DO IT!
Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 7:47:37 AM
PetsDreamlands wrote:

The intention of the web was to interconnect the world, what worked pretty fine in the beginning. Now it's turning more and more back into a national construct with borders and limitations and censorship.


Yeah, like the old radio and television eras. They have to control speech in every country to keep us all divided. Anyone who thinks that this is about intellectual property hasn't done their research. This is the construction of a digital wall. It's all about censorship.
Posted: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 7:58:48 AM
Jerry Lambert wrote:
It's all about censorship.

A construct within the desire for power.
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