Zazzle: my designs and copyrights are not yours to give away 11 pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:23:48 AM
I am wondering if these terms as they are will give Zazzle a right to keep our designs even after we close our stores if we don't get it done before the 22 of Nov. Most of my store is hidden and set to private. I don't see a choice to keep my store if the terms are not thrown out before then.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:24:26 AM
Colorwash wrote:
I'm currently testing things on another person's product. So far, I was able to invite a stranger (just a throwaway email address I have) and the stranger received the invite. She's currently helping to make a wreck of the designer's product. What ISN'T working is the chat feature. It has a delay that seems to extend into infinity.

I don't like what I'm seeing but will go only as far as halting my design activity until I get answers.

My dearest wish at the moment would be the ability to turn off the Customize button in batches, not having to land back on square one by having to redo my products. I'm not as keen on an opt-out ability because it's something I don't quite trust.


I would like the opt out to actually become a clause in the terms.

That Zazzle agrees not to touch anything that a designer has designated as opted out of any part of the site activities.

But we have to have opt outs in order to do this...
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:26:18 AM
The experience I just had has shown me that, if a design will be stolen, it'll have to be done in the way it's always been done. I see no way for a design to show up in the Create tool. Am I missing something?
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:35:02 AM
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
I am wondering if these terms as they are will give Zazzle a right to keep our designs even after we close our stores if we don't get it done before the 22 of Nov. Most of my store is hidden and set to private. I don't see a choice to keep my store if the terms are not thrown out before then.


Zazzle doesn't but that doesn't say anything about initiator of collaborations. To me the collaboration clause sounds permanent, irrevocable.

That is part why now I feel like a deer in the headlights. I feel forced to make decisions that hurt me no matter what without having the full picture since zazzle is working on the issues ...

The collaboration is creating facts, due to the fact that art work is jointly owned by all Collaborators under 17 U.S. Code Title 17 and zazzle has a transferable license. At the very least I have a hard time to argue, that I wasn't part of the collaboration prior to 11/22 so 17 U.S. Code Title 17 doesn't apply.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:36:11 AM
Colorwash wrote:
The experience I just had has shown me that, if a design will be stolen, it'll have to be done in the way it's always been done. I see no way for a design to show up in the Create tool. Am I missing something?


No! Not on the technical side. The issue has always been the legalese.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:43:54 AM
vivendulies wrote:
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
I am wondering if these terms as they are will give Zazzle a right to keep our designs even after we close our stores if we don't get it done before the 22 of Nov. Most of my store is hidden and set to private. I don't see a choice to keep my store if the terms are not thrown out before then.


Zazzle doesn't but that doesn't say anything about initiator of collaborations. To me the collaboration clause sounds permanent, irrevocable.

That is part why now I feel like a deer in the headlights. I feel forced to make decisions that hurt me no matter what without having the full picture since zazzle is working on the issues ...

The collaboration is creating facts, due to the fact that art work is jointly owned by all Collaborators under 17 U.S. Code Title 17 and zazzle has a transferable license. At the very least I have a hard time to argue, that I wasn't part of the collaboration prior to 11/22 so 17 U.S. Code Title 17 doesn't apply.


Thank you for explaining Viven. The other thing is what about the works the beta testers have collaborated with all this time? There could be many designs set to go public after Nov 22 without any notification to the original designer. This is overwhelming but thank you again for explaining so much of the legal.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:46:32 AM
Mixed feelings.
I understand that this type of statement is generally needed for production, Z's "white glove" service, and also for Z or any affiliate to make changes and send a link to the edited version with their affiliate code. Or even post affiliate products on a website or make collages for social media, etc.

And something of that nature is needed in cases like that I've run into - a customer contacted me, because they found that I had a categorically similar design on a particular product they needed to complete an invitation set. Whereas the designer of the full suite they were ordering didn't already have a matching envelope or something.....

Me NOT being a money grabber and preferring they get a real coordinated set, actually told the customer that my art would clash with the rest of the set ... and I was not about to try and duplicate or mimic their work on my own product. So I transferred the original suite designer's stuff to the product they were looking for, with no other edits, and sent the link to the customer. With an affiliate link of course, knowing full well the chances were slim it would stick LOL.

Without fully stating the process, most of us here probably know how someone could exploit that situation using certain settings on the product links sent back to a customer/collaborator.

Another question is how is Z going to handle this situation with the "white glove" service?
In the example I mentioned above that I facilitated - what if that was done through Z's services?
If a customer wanted a matching product that I didn't already have. Have I allowed Z to create and privately send my design to a customer directly without receiving the royalty?



This part is what is alarming IMO... no matter what other details are mentioned about not being able to exploit or upload the resulting designs for sale publicly... any skimmer/scammer will see that paragraph and think they've hit the jackpot, regardless of how it can be technically upheld by a lawyer - because already the scammers know it's barely worth the attorney fees to most small businesses much beyond DMCA and CND form letters:

"EACH COLLABORATOR HEREBY GRANTS TO THE COLLABORATION INITIATOR A NONEXCLUSIVE, PERPETUAL, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE AND TRANSFERABLE RIGHT AND LICENSE TO USE, COPY, REPRODUCE, PREPARE DERIVATIVE WORKS OF, MODIFY, PUBLICLY DISPLAY, PERFORM AND DISTRIBUTE ASSETS AS CONTAINED IN THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE."

And still concerned about purchased artwork, as even some of the most generous sites definitely don't allow the transfer of licensing and rights, even if the final design had been modified. ESPECIALLY on those repeating patterns.. there are hundreds in the MP which I know come from sites that very specifically say you cannot create repeating patterns from a piece of art, and cannot transfer the license or allow others to use them... just saying...

Sorry, I'm babbling a bit. There is so much here. Even without touching on the secondary artwork planned.

There are some sites out there with great translation of legal terms, which I hope that Z starts to include. Anything with a chart that distinctly says "things you CAN do" and "things you CANNOT do" - that type of thing. Many of the trendier/newer art content sites use them.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:48:21 AM
We are not nervous or going to regret our choices. Honestly, in the end, if Zazzle is doing this we can't be sure other PODs won't. We just have some images that we want complete control over. They are personally important to us and they will be gone. We had made up our minds on the dividing line of designs remaining and disappearing last week. However, we thought we had until 11/22 but Zazzle promised answers while proceeding with seemingly to us early implementation. People can wander in and play this weekend so we have taken away what we don't want them to play with. The new features seem more than customization and we don't like the TOS on licensing rights. We are not advocating anyone follow what we are doing. We are just telling Zazzle what we are doing. We are really unhappy with the no response and the seemingly early implementation.

What the writing site did was told authors the weekend before Labor Day write articles for this team starting this weekend and they will be paid out by Friday. On Monday, they hedged. Then no payout that Friday but they turned the articles over to the client so the guess was that the money was sitting in their account. I was working on team articles and on orders for a client who released the money for payout immediately. I should have done more for the client. I believed what I was strung along to believe. Here I believed Zazzle would talk to us although it was taking a long time. Instead, we got seemingly early implementatiom.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 7:58:15 AM
Short version:

- The legal bits about collaboration make no mention of the original designer.
- Paired with the paragraph about transferred rights, and mention of private products is concerning.
- How does Z White Glove service play into all of it?
- How will purchased licensed art already in use all over the MP factor in? Will there be some sort of official statement about what this means they want used on products going forward?
- What sort of notifications will be put on those who have initiated collaborations on products that are not their own? At the time of collaboration initiation or after it's done being edited in the designer area?
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:07:28 AM
PaperGrape wrote:
Short version:
- What sort of notifications will be put on those who have initiated collaborations on products that are not their own? At the time of collaboration initiation or after it's done being edited in the designer area?


It would have to be as soon as the first collaborator agreed to join the collaboration since the "in progress" already changed the right and how the original designer can use his own product. Just imagine the collaborators make a fairly common addition and the original artist comes up with the same idea.

I didn't order the collaborated product so I can't tell what happens when it is placed in the shopping basket and actually ordered.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:15:13 AM
Still trying to understand:

Does this mean when the collaboration is in progress and your designer name disappears - you won't receive your royalty if the customer purchases the design, as the copyright (license) has been transferred to them?
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:26:10 AM
wait.... what.... I've been a little out of the loop the last couple of weeks...

So if I am reading this correctly *anyone* can invite anyone else to collaborate on my designs and suddenly they own the copyright, without having to consult me, perhaps without even altering the design at all. Absolutely NO.... the artist/owner should be the SOLE person allowed to offer/accept a collaboration to another person.

So I did the Disney test. I did end up with a design in my saved designs that does not list Disney as the creator. It does not allow me to sell the design, but it does indeed now say 'designed by you' so would I now be able to purchase this shirt without a royalty going to Disney? That is difficult to tell. The price has not changed.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:33:37 AM
I think ???
Unlikely as to royalties. Sounds like primary and secondary content will rule. But don't quote me on that. I really have no clue how this works, since the initiator in the beta can use any MP product.

As to collaboration unbeknownst, currently possible. Several zazzle checked it out. I started the collaboration and therefor it is in progress and I wasn't notified that it happened, see here
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:42:57 AM
I can't believe the mess this is

instead of answering all the questions we had before we now have a new can of worms opened and twice as many questions to answer.

and these new features forced upon us that we have not agreed to yet.

YET being the keyword.

and no way to opt out which is forcing us to make uniformed decisions that are potentially damaging to us if we thought we wanted to find a way to stay here or for those who need the money and have to stay...

Where is the head spinning emoji?


Sad
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:45:29 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:


Where is the head spinning emoji?


Sad


When an emoji is missing make your own ... though might be a bad time for new content???

Oh, dear
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:51:11 AM
Well you can show me as another vote for opt out please.... I do not wish to allow any collaborations on any of my products. If Zazzle cannot make this an opt out, then they really need to allow current store owners to set all of their designs created before this point in time to non-customizable.... I wanted to allow customers to tweak things if the template fields didn't work out perfectly, but oh well.

As far as I can see it's not possible to sell or even copy/paste from collaboration items, so it's not as dire as I thought in the first place, but even just the language that allows anyone to send themselves an email and now share your copyrights is not acceptable.... Apparently if I do what I just did to Mickey after Nov. 22nd I will then own a piece of that... I wonder how they feel about it?
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:02:55 AM
I am nearly finished hiding my products. This has taken me several hours. I think it will take just as long to delete everything so I'll need to get started deleting a day or so before the Nov 22 deadline. We need the answers Zazzle and the terms need a do over.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:11:12 AM
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
I am nearly finished hiding my products. This has taken me several hours. I think it will take just as long to delete everything so I'll need to get started deleting a day or so before the Nov 22 deadline. We need the answers Zazzle and the terms need a do over.


Just so you know... it looks like anything you've actually sold remains visible in the MP, whether or not you've hidden it - just now it no longer carries your designer name....
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:14:38 AM
Invincible Penguin wrote:
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
I am nearly finished hiding my products. This has taken me several hours. I think it will take just as long to delete everything so I'll need to get started deleting a day or so before the Nov 22 deadline. We need the answers Zazzle and the terms need a do over.


Just so you know... it looks like anything you've actually sold remains visible in the MP, whether or not you've hidden it - just now it no longer carries your designer name....


Oh no!! That isn't good. So wonder what happens if I delete the design altogether? Thanks for letting me know.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:16:56 AM
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
Invincible Penguin wrote:
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
I am nearly finished hiding my products. This has taken me several hours. I think it will take just as long to delete everything so I'll need to get started deleting a day or so before the Nov 22 deadline. We need the answers Zazzle and the terms need a do over.


Just so you know... it looks like anything you've actually sold remains visible in the MP, whether or not you've hidden it - just now it no longer carries your designer name....


Oh no!! That isn't good. So wonder what happens if I delete the design altogether? Thanks for letting me know.


If you want to test it out, this is one of your designs that I can still click on and see/edit - no error message
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:18:01 AM
I do not consent to these new terms being forced upon us and I am opting out, with or without the choice. I know zazzle reads these forums and I am therefore making my position clear.

What perhaps they do not realize is that many sellers purchased licenses to the designs which are *non transferrable*. This will mean that if there is no option to opt out, all of those designs will have to be removed due to the possibility of copyright infringement. All of them. Zazzle will lose some of its highest grossing designers because these new terms expose the designers - and ultimately zazzle itself - to copyright infringement liability.

Candidly, I have been out of the loop for the past few months as I've been busy with my full time job. I am shocked coming back to this news. No, zazzle, I will not permit you to wholesale transfer the copyrights and licenses of my licensed designs nor my own personal designs.

These new terms will have serious implications, unfortunately which will lead to many designers removing their products permanently, including myself.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:22:01 AM
Quote:
What perhaps they do not realize is that many sellers purchased licenses to the designs which are *non transferrable*. This will mean that if there is no option to opt out, all of those designs will have to be removed due to the possibility of copyright infringement. All of them. Zazzle will lose some of its highest grossing designers because these new terms expose the designers - and ultimately zazzle itself - to copyright infringement liability

Yes, I thought about this yesterday...this whole plan is unworkable.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:27:50 AM
I use no stock art so I don't have any issues about not being able to transfer other entities copyrights - but this is still unworkable because I have no desire to grant the privilege of owning my designs to anyone who simply sends themselves an email.... I get the boilerplate that allows the Zazzle corporation to use my stuff - they have to have all of that in there to print and ship anything, but this new thing is waaaaaaaaaaaay overboard with it's permissiveness.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:34:18 AM
Invincible Penguin wrote:
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
Invincible Penguin wrote:
[quote=DreamEssence_Designs]I am nearly finished hiding my products. This has taken me several hours. I think it will take just as long to delete everything so I'll need to get started deleting a day or so before the Nov 22 deadline. We need the answers Zazzle and the terms need a do over.


Just so you know... it looks like anything you've actually sold remains visible in the MP, whether or not you've hidden it - just now it no longer carries your designer name....


Oh no!! That isn't good. So wonder what happens if I delete the design altogether? Thanks for letting me know.


If you want to test it out, this is one of your designs that I can still click on and see/edit - no error message


That was the last design I just set to hidden a moment ago. I can still click on the link and see it however. Would you mind deleting the link for me? Thank you. Love
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:38:13 AM
With the new features being promoted (collaborations, future digital products etc), the new terms may have to do with what's called "derivative work." It's existed forever in copyright law. You can research "derivative work" yourself or below are a few links.

https://www.finnegan.com/en/insights/understanding-the-importance-of-derivative-works.html

https://www.traverselegal.com/blog/can-derivative-works-be-copyrighted/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/what-are-derivative-works-under-copyright-law

As you research "derivative work," you will see that it's complex stuff.

I believe Z sees what is going on with competitor sites offering things not available here and wants in on the market share (and rightfully so).

Plenty of people buy digital frames/filters to share with guests for events. Someone that I know just got married and bought one so that guests could use their wedding invite elements/personalized name over guest pictures taken then shared on FB,SC, etc. A major competitor offers free wedding websites and freebie banners that match the design of purchased products from said site. Of course that helps the competitor because it creates brand awareness when guests check out the freebie websites.

I don't think Z is trying to pull a fast one on designers but I do agree that designers need to be careful due to 3rd party licenses and the complexity of "derivative work," "fair use" and other similar topics in copyright law. One may also not want his or her original works used such ways.

Before anyone does anything drastic, I would hold tight and see what Z has to say.

Just my 2 cents.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:41:47 AM
Customer collaboration... Regular designer collaboration... I've seen addressed. What I have not seen addressed is the following scenario:

Theoretically, how does it play out if a collaborator who is *not* the original designer but is either a Zazzle employee-designer or is one of the new NDA-designers-providing-free-content designers initiates a collaboration from either the [Aqua Designer] Create tool or the [new Purple Customer] Create tool?

In either case, it strikes me the result would be on the ethically shady side but okay under the new TOS agreement.

But, then again, this last month has been mind-blowing.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:44:34 AM
Talia Adele wrote:
I do not consent to these new terms being forced upon us and I am opting out, with or without the choice. I know zazzle reads these forums and I am therefore making my position clear.

What perhaps they do not realize is that many sellers purchased licenses to the designs which are *non transferrable*. This will mean that if there is no option to opt out, all of those designs will have to be removed due to the possibility of copyright infringement. All of them. Zazzle will lose some of its highest grossing designers because these new terms expose the designers - and ultimately zazzle itself - to copyright infringement liability.

Candidly, I have been out of the loop for the past few months as I've been busy with my full time job. I am shocked coming back to this news. No, zazzle, I will not permit you to wholesale transfer the copyrights and licenses of my licensed designs nor my own personal designs.

These new terms will have serious implications, unfortunately which will lead to many designers removing their products permanently, including myself.


Also including me. My works are no gifts. I learned years to do this. And every work needed many hours to create and hours for rendering. I will be sad because I spend uncountable hours on Zazzle last years, I will cry, I will be very angry and I will tell the world what Zazzle did!
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:49:23 AM
I don't want to be the pessimist one , but according to Zazzle Facebook post from November 6 , it seems to me they 're not at all concerned about designers leaving ...In fact , they're looking for new ones ! Shocked

This following quote is part of their post :
"We're always excited when new designers join our community, open stores, design beautiful things, and make some money in the meantime." ..end quote
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:52:07 AM
ArianeC wrote:
I don't want to be the pessimist one , but according to Zazzle Facebook post from November 6 , it seems to me they 're not at all concerned about designers leaving ...In fact , they're looking for new ones ! Shocked

This following quote is part of their post :
"We're always excited when new designers join our community, open stores, design beautiful things, and make some money in the meantime." ..end quote

That sounds like the sort of thing they often say. Don't read anything into it.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:54:19 AM
hilarious_shirts wrote:
With the new features being promoted (collaborations, future digital products etc), the new terms may have to do with what's called "derivative work." It's existed forever in copyright law. You can research "derivative work" yourself or below are a few links.

https://www.finnegan.com/en/insights/understanding-the-importance-of-derivative-works.html

https://www.traverselegal.com/blog/can-derivative-works-be-copyrighted/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/what-are-derivative-works-under-copyright-law

As you research "derivative work," you will see that it's complex stuff.

I believe Z sees what is going on with competitor sites offering things not available here and wants in on the market share (and rightfully so).

Plenty of people buy digital frames/filters to share with guests for events. Someone that I know just got married and bought one so that guests could use their wedding invite elements/personalized name over guest pictures taken then shared on FB,SC, etc. A major competitor offers free wedding websites and freebie banners that match the design of purchased products from said site. Of course that helps the competitor because it creates brand awareness when guests check out the freebie websites.

I don't think Z is trying to pull a fast one on designers but I do agree that designers need to be careful due to 3rd party licenses and the complexity of "derivative work," "fair use" and other similar topics in copyright law. One may also not want his or her original works used such ways.

Before anyone does anything drastic, I would hold tight and see what Z has to say.

Just my 2 cents.


I appreciate that and am only hiding (for now) however I will delete my store before the deadline because unfortunately derivative covers the butts of collaboraters who with Zazzle's blessing can create derivatives from our designs with no notice or permission required. They can do this already as others have tested collaberation. After Nov 22 you will have agreed to the new terms. It is not a standard tos it's something totally different from anything I've ever read on any other pod and I've checked out the terms of many. Waiting until after Nov 22 for Zazzle to take control of my copyright so they can transfer it to everyone on the planet is not something I can live with. Our artwork stands to become worthless as we will likely be competing against our own artwork from that time forward with who knows how many derivatives flood the MP. Imagine you search through the MP and see your artwork on sell with a few minor changes. Can't even describe how I would feel. Angry for starters.
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