Zazzle: my designs and copyrights are not yours to give away 11 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:55:35 AM
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
hilarious_shirts wrote:
With the new features being promoted (collaborations, future digital products etc), the new terms may have to do with what's called "derivative work." It's existed forever in copyright law. You can research "derivative work" yourself or below are a few links.

https://www.finnegan.com/en/insights/understanding-the-importance-of-derivative-works.html

https://www.traverselegal.com/blog/can-derivative-works-be-copyrighted/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/what-are-derivative-works-under-copyright-law

As you research "derivative work," you will see that it's complex stuff.

I believe Z sees what is going on with competitor sites offering things not available here and wants in on the market share (and rightfully so).

Plenty of people buy digital frames/filters to share with guests for events. Someone that I know just got married and bought one so that guests could use their wedding invite elements/personalized name over guest pictures taken then shared on FB,SC, etc. A major competitor offers free wedding websites and freebie banners that match the design of purchased products from said site. Of course that helps the competitor because it creates brand awareness when guests check out the freebie websites.

I don't think Z is trying to pull a fast one on designers but I do agree that designers need to be careful due to 3rd party licenses and the complexity of "derivative work," "fair use" and other similar topics in copyright law. One may also not want his or her original works used such ways.

Before anyone does anything drastic, I would hold tight and see what Z has to say.

Just my 2 cents.


I appreciate that and am only hiding (for now) however I will delete my store before the deadline because unfortunately derivative covers the butts of collaboraters who with Zazzle's blessing can create derivatives from our designs with no notice or permission required. They can do this already as others have tested collaberation. After Nov 22 you will have agreed to the new terms. It is not a standard tos it's something totally different from anything I've ever read on any other pod and I've checked out the terms of many. Waiting until after Nov 22 for Zazzle to take control of my copyright so they can transfer it to everyone on the planet is not something I can live with. Our artwork stands to become worthless as we will likely be competing against our own artwork from that time forward with who knows how many derivatives flood the MP. Imagine you search through the MP and see your artwork on sale with a few minor changes. Can't even describe how I would feel. Angry for starters.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:59:13 AM
hilarious_shirts wrote:
With the new features being promoted (collaborations, future digital products etc), the new terms may have to do with what's called "derivative work." It's existed forever in copyright law. You can research "derivative work" yourself or below are a few links.

https://www.finnegan.com/en/insights/understanding-the-importance-of-derivative-works.html

https://www.traverselegal.com/blog/can-derivative-works-be-copyrighted/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/what-are-derivative-works-under-copyright-law

As you research "derivative work," you will see that it's complex stuff.

I believe Z sees what is going on with competitor sites offering things not available here and wants in on the market share (and rightfully so).

Plenty of people buy digital frames/filters to share with guests for events. Someone that I know just got married and bought one so that guests could use their wedding invite elements/personalized name over guest pictures taken then shared on FB,SC, etc. A major competitor offers free wedding websites and freebie banners that match the design of purchased products from said site. Of course that helps the competitor because it creates brand awareness when guests check out the freebie websites.

I don't think Z is trying to pull a fast one on designers but I do agree that designers need to be careful due to 3rd party licenses and the complexity of "derivative work," "fair use" and other similar topics in copyright law. One may also not want his or her original works used such ways.

Before anyone does anything drastic, I would hold tight and see what Z has to say.

Just my 2 cents.


I appreciate your opinion and agree that deleting is not the best option today... Hiding is a better one if you feel the need to protect your work (as I do)

My only comment on what you said is this...

What has Zazzle had to say so far?

Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 10:06:14 AM
ArianeC wrote:
I don't want to be the pessimist one , but according to Zazzle Facebook post from November 6 , it seems to me they 're not at all concerned about designers leaving ...In fact , they're looking for new ones ! Shocked

This following quote is part of their post :
"We're always excited when new designers join our community, open stores, design beautiful things, and make some money in the meantime." ..end quote

Well, sure. They need to replace the Designers who are leaving. ;)
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 10:11:10 AM
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:

I appreciate that and am only hiding (for now) however I will delete my store before the deadline because unfortunately derivative covers the butts of collaboraters who with Zazzle's blessing can create derivatives from our designs with no notice or permission required. They can do this already as others have tested collaberation. After Nov 22 you will have agreed to the new terms. It is not a standard tos it's something totally different from anything I've ever read on any other pod and I've checked out the terms of many. Waiting until after Nov 22 for Zazzle to take control of my copyright so they can transfer it to everyone on the planet is not something I can live with. Our artwork stands to become worthless as we will likely be competing against our own artwork from that time forward with who knows how many derivatives flood the MP. Imagine you search through the MP and see your artwork on sell with a few minor changes. Can't even describe how I would feel. Angry for starters.


I do not disagree that is is a huge issue - but it's not quite, as far as I can tell, as bad as what you are describing.

I tried inviting myself to collaborate on a Mickey t-shirt. I was able to do this and to make changes to the shirt. Making the changes really isn't anything new. Allowing customization has always permitted this. What hasn't changed - I did not get the option to post the item I've collaborated on for sale under my name, nor could I copy and paste the elements on that item. What has changed is that unlike if I just customize, if I am invited to collaborate the design now shows up in my saved designs, no longer attributed to the original copyright owner and the biggie... ostensibly I've now (well after Nov 22nd) granted myself a license to use that work however I like, world wide, etc.....

So.. what does this mean? People would still have to do a screen grab to swipe artwork to put it on their items. It doesn't actually make it super simple to repost your designs under a different designer's name. What it does do is legitimize it when this does happen. So say I see my t-shirt over on RedBubble being sold by someone else. Normally what I'd do is just DCMA them and it would be taken down, but under these terms the person could say - oh, no... I collaborated with you over on Zazzle, so you've granted me permission to use this design wherever and for whatever I want, and unfortunately they'd be right.

I can vaguely see where Zazzle is coming from with this and what they are trying to achieve, but what I do think is that they are *sloppy* when they write their legalese. They leave things too wide open and leave the designers very vulnerable.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 10:16:24 AM
Invincible Penguin wrote:
What it does do is legitimize it when this does happen.

[SNIP]

I do think is that they are *sloppy* when they write their legalese. They leave things too wide open and leave the designers very vulnerable.

^This. Exactly.

Designers weren't the consideration of the new terms. Zazzle's behind was, and that's what their lawyers were hired for. It's also why every Designer who has a concern needs to express those concerns, even if only to "+1" that they have a concern and say nothing more.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 10:20:49 AM
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
Invincible Penguin wrote:
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:
Invincible Penguin wrote:
[quote=DreamEssence_Designs]I am nearly finished hiding my products. This has taken me several hours. I think it will take just as long to delete everything so I'll need to get started deleting a day or so before the Nov 22 deadline. We need the answers Zazzle and the terms need a do over.


Just so you know... it looks like anything you've actually sold remains visible in the MP, whether or not you've hidden it - just now it no longer carries your designer name....


Oh no!! That isn't good. So wonder what happens if I delete the design altogether? Thanks for letting me know.


If you want to test it out, this is one of your designs that I can still click on and see/edit - no error message


That was the last design I just set to hidden a moment ago. I can still click on the link and see it however. Would you mind deleting the link for me? Thank you. Love


Please keep in mind zazzle works with a cache so the site is workable even in their busiest times. I checked on my most stolen art, which I hid becaue these are the most likely that I want to defend. I checked with a separate browser and they were all 404s.

Sold or not sold. They are likely still in the order history of the customer and I have no idea whether they get a 404 if they attempt to edit the product and not just reorder the item without open the product detail page.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 10:32:55 AM
hilarious_shirts wrote:
With the new features being promoted (collaborations, future digital products etc), the new terms may have to do with what's called "derivative work." It's existed forever in copyright law. You can research "derivative work" yourself or below are a few links.

https://www.finnegan.com/en/insights/understanding-the-importance-of-derivative-works.html

https://www.traverselegal.com/blog/can-derivative-works-be-copyrighted/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/what-are-derivative-works-under-copyright-law

As you research "derivative work," you will see that it's complex stuff.

I believe Z sees what is going on with competitor sites offering things not available here and wants in on the market share (and rightfully so).

Plenty of people buy digital frames/filters to share with guests for events. Someone that I know just got married and bought one so that guests could use their wedding invite elements/personalized name over guest pictures taken then shared on FB,SC, etc. A major competitor offers free wedding websites and freebie banners that match the design of purchased products from said site. Of course that helps the competitor because it creates brand awareness when guests check out the freebie websites.

I don't think Z is trying to pull a fast one on designers but I do agree that designers need to be careful due to 3rd party licenses and the complexity of "derivative work," "fair use" and other similar topics in copyright law. One may also not want his or her original works used such ways.

Before anyone does anything drastic, I would hold tight and see what Z has to say.

Just my 2 cents.


Derivative work is a matter of interpretation and opinions of experts in the field can differ vastly, which makes derivative work an ugly business.

But zazzle avoided this subject elegantly by transferring the license when the work is still in progress and avoided the subject altogether by leaving out any qualification as to the extend of the changes in the collaboration.

So while mention in the terms it is inconsequential for the rights granted. The derivative in the terms refers to what the initiator can do or not do with the finished collaborated work, which includes derivative work in my humble opinion as an artist.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 10:46:56 AM
Invincible Penguin wrote:
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:

I appreciate that and am only hiding (for now) however I will delete my store before the deadline because unfortunately derivative covers the butts of collaboraters who with Zazzle's blessing can create derivatives from our designs with no notice or permission required. They can do this already as others have tested collaberation. After Nov 22 you will have agreed to the new terms. It is not a standard tos it's something totally different from anything I've ever read on any other pod and I've checked out the terms of many. Waiting until after Nov 22 for Zazzle to take control of my copyright so they can transfer it to everyone on the planet is not something I can live with. Our artwork stands to become worthless as we will likely be competing against our own artwork from that time forward with who knows how many derivatives flood the MP. Imagine you search through the MP and see your artwork on sell with a few minor changes. Can't even describe how I would feel. Angry for starters.


I do not disagree that is is a huge issue - but it's not quite, as far as I can tell, as bad as what you are describing.

I tried inviting myself to collaborate on a Mickey t-shirt. I was able to do this and to make changes to the shirt. Making the changes really isn't anything new. Allowing customization has always permitted this. What hasn't changed - I did not get the option to post the item I've collaborated on for sale under my name, nor could I copy and paste the elements on that item. What has changed is that unlike if I just customize, if I am invited to collaborate the design now shows up in my saved designs, no longer attributed to the original copyright owner and the biggie... ostensibly I've now (well after Nov 22nd) granted myself a license to use that work however I like, world wide, etc.....

So.. what does this mean? People would still have to do a screen grab to swipe artwork to put it on their items. It doesn't actually make it super simple to repost your designs under a different designer's name. What it does do is legitimize it when this does happen. So say I see my t-shirt over on RedBubble being sold by someone else. Normally what I'd do is just DCMA them and it would be taken down, but under these terms the person could say - oh, no... I collaborated with you over on Zazzle, so you've granted me permission to use this design wherever and for whatever I want, and unfortunately they'd be right.

I can vaguely see where Zazzle is coming from with this and what they are trying to achieve, but what I do think is that they are *sloppy* when they write their legalese. They leave things too wide open and leave the designers very vulnerable.


If they can't actually sell the derivative that would be a small glimmer of hope. I can't allow transfer of my copyright though. Any collaboration must have the original designer's involvement somehow. The terms are sloppy I agree 100% but they are clear enough to me that my copyright and control over my own artwork will be voided out if I stay and terms are not rewritten. The tools need to be fixed so that the original artist/designer must be notified and given the right to refuse. Why do they leave the original artist out of the loop? Opt outs are a must for me with ALL of these changes.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:08:17 AM
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:

If they can't actually sell the derivative that would be a small glimmer of hope. I can't allow transfer of my copyright though. Any collaboration must have the original designer's involvement somehow. The terms are sloppy I agree 100% but they are clear enough to me that my copyright and control over my own artwork will be voided out if I stay and terms are not rewritten. The tools need to be fixed so that the original artist/designer must be notified and given the right to refuse. Why do they leave the original artist out of the loop? Opt outs are a must for me with ALL of these changes.


I do not disagree with you. I think it is completely unreasonable for collaborations to be allowed without the consent of the designer. While Zazzle may say - well if you don't like it, just make your designs non-customizable, that won't 1) help any designs made pre-announcement, as you cannot go back and change that designation on existing products - the only recourse would be to delete and recreate everything setting them to no customization allowed.... 2) defeats much of the purpose of Zazzle, which is to have customizable items... you can, of course still use template fields while not allowing full customization, but up to this point I've generally chosen to allow them, in the event that the templates don't work out perfectly and the item needs tweaking and/or to allow customers to choose something like a different font color or background color than I have...
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:27:52 AM
Invincible Penguin wrote:
DreamEssence_Designs wrote:

If they can't actually sell the derivative that would be a small glimmer of hope. I can't allow transfer of my copyright though. Any collaboration must have the original designer's involvement somehow. The terms are sloppy I agree 100% but they are clear enough to me that my copyright and control over my own artwork will be voided out if I stay and terms are not rewritten. The tools need to be fixed so that the original artist/designer must be notified and given the right to refuse. Why do they leave the original artist out of the loop? Opt outs are a must for me with ALL of these changes.


I do not disagree with you. I think it is completely unreasonable for collaborations to be allowed without the consent of the designer. While Zazzle may say - well if you don't like it, just make your designs non-customizable, that won't 1) help any designs made pre-announcement, as you cannot go back and change that designation on existing products - the only recourse would be to delete and recreate everything setting them to no customization allowed.... 2) defeats much of the purpose of Zazzle, which is to have customizable items... you can, of course still use template fields while not allowing full customization, but up to this point I've generally chosen to allow them, in the event that the templates don't work out perfectly and the item needs tweaking and/or to allow customers to choose something like a different font color or background color than I have...


I agree. I have thought about using the templates just for items like name plates, cards, flyers things of that nature. I haven't used them before except for my own use. I may not do those items unless I can find a template tutorial that is just for customers. Maybe the ones I make for myself are the same as for them I don't know.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:30:21 AM
RoyK_is_a_She wrote:

^This. Exactly.

Designers weren't the consideration of the new terms. Zazzle's behind was, and that's what their lawyers were hired for. It's also why every Designer who has a concern needs to express those concerns, even if only to "+1" that they have a concern and say nothing more.


+1
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:42:09 AM
vivendulies wrote:
Derivative work is a matter of interpretation and opinions of experts in the field can differ vastly, which makes derivative work an ugly business.

But zazzle avoided this subject elegantly by transferring the license when the work is still in progress and avoided the subject altogether by leaving out any qualification as to the extend of the changes in the collaboration.

So while mention in the terms it is inconsequential for the rights granted. The derivative in the terms refers to what the initiator can do or not do with the finished collaborated work, which includes derivative work in my humble opinion as an artist.


What has bothered me almost from the Git Go is the most infinitesimal change that would need to be done in order to claim the right to a design.

Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:51:21 AM
So, a few observations:

1) Yes, your copyright is yours, but...

2) When you license your art/design to Zazzle, their terms govern what they can do with that copyrighted work. So you need to read the terms very carefully (and possibly get a lawyer involved if you consider your art/design valuable, and want to be sure you aren't giving away too many of your rights.)

3) If the art/design you're selling here is not 100% your own creation, you now have another set of terms to think about - those that govern and limit your use of anything that you licensed from somewhere else, since (generally speaking) you didn't acquire their copyright - only permission to exploit it in a limited way. You always need to make sure that any change of terms on Zazzle aren't grabbing them rights of use that aren't yours to give.

4) If you've provided templates or allowed customizing of your designs in the past, then you've agreed to Zazzle's terms that give customers the ability to create a derivative work for them to purchase.

So what does the new "collaborate" change? On the surface, it might appear that it just gives customers the ability to invite someone else to help them with the creation of this derivative work for purchase.

The problem is perhaps not so much with the new site functionality, as it is what the new terms say:

Quote:
THE RIGHT TO EXPLOIT THE COPYRIGHT TO THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE AS A “PUBLIC” PRODUCT SHALL BE EXCLUSIVE TO THE INITIATOR OF THE RELEVANT COLLABORATION SESSION (“Collaboration Initiator”). EACH COLLABORATOR HEREBY GRANTS TO THE COLLABORATION INITIATOR A NONEXCLUSIVE, PERPETUAL, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE AND TRANSFERABLE RIGHT AND LICENSE TO USE, COPY, REPRODUCE, PREPARE DERIVATIVE WORKS OF, MODIFY, PUBLICLY DISPLAY, PERFORM AND DISTRIBUTE ASSETS AS CONTAINED IN THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE.


Zazzle's new terms seek to clarify in subsections thereafter the limitations of this "right to exploit the copyright of the collaborative content". For example, it can only be purchased; neither party to the collaboration are granted a right to upload it for sale.

So what's the problem, then? The problem is that those subsections don't necessarily modify the terms in all caps above - rights that you, the designer, are granting to a collaboration initiator. Those subsections merely clarify how Zazzle says they can be used on their site.

Note well the terms' reference to how collaboration is governed under U.S. Law. ("The copyright to any Content that results from a Collaboration, whether a “final” product or in-progress (collectively, “Collaborative Content”), may be jointly owned by all Collaborators under 17 U.S. Code Title 17")

What Zazzle's terms require you to do, is to surrender the rights you would have under the referenced law, in order to grant these broad rights to the collaboration initiator.

Is Zazzle going to pay you a royalty if a product gets purchased as a result of this collaboration?


It's not clear to me that they will.

Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:56:35 AM
Personally I feel section 6 is not about customers customizing our product and inviting someone else in to collaborate, since the Designer License clearly states: "You retain all copyright and other intellectual property rights in your Content."

I feel it's about someone starting a design from scratch and then inviting someone else in to collaborate. In that case the collaboration initiator will be the only one able to post for sale and all rights are granted to him/her, I guess to prevent disagreements in the future.

But since the useragreement is so unclear and talks about "all content that results from a Collaboration" I really feel that a mod from @Zazzle should come into the forum and answer our questions. We are all very worried about this and maybe it's unnessary but we can't be for certain.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:57:00 AM
PawsitiveDesigns wrote:

So, it really is all about the new TOS and the legal rights that are being given away. It's not that all of a sudden our MP designs are more vulnerable than they ever were, it's about the legalities. I hope Zazzle changes the new TOS to protect our work, but for me personally, unless or until download is made available on our MP designs used in Collaborate, I don't feel the need to hide products. I've had pillow designs stolen that are currently on Amazon, and as frustrating as it is, it's not worth it to me to fight it legally. So, for me, I don't feel it's worth taking down the designs just because someone might now use them legally when they are/were already being used illegally before Collaborate. Each designer has to decide how they feel about it, but as of right now, I don't feel anymore vulnerable than I ever was.


I'm doing the wait and see, but I think the concern is that with the new terms, if your thief used the system to add a dot to your design, then captured the image in their usual way and sold it on Amazon or elsewhere, you couldn't fight it legally even if you wanted you.

Or on Redbubble like Invincible Penguin's scenario:
Invincible Penguin wrote:

So.. what does this mean? People would still have to do a screen grab to swipe artwork to put it on their items. It doesn't actually make it super simple to repost your designs under a different designer's name. What it does do is legitimize it when this does happen. So say I see my t-shirt over on RedBubble being sold by someone else. Normally what I'd do is just DCMA them and it would be taken down, but under these terms the person could say - oh, no... I collaborated with you over on Zazzle, so you've granted me permission to use this design wherever and for whatever I want, and unfortunately they'd be right.


Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 12:13:12 PM
Quote:
Zazzle's new terms seek to clarify in subsections thereafter the limitations of this "right to exploit the copyright of the collaborative content". For example, it can only be purchased; neither party to the collaboration are granted a right to upload it for sale.


does it say that neither party can upload it for sale?

it seems to say that the initiator does have the right to make public products and not just on zazzle but anywhere...

Quote:
THE RIGHT TO EXPLOIT THE COPYRIGHT TO THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE AS A “PUBLIC” PRODUCT SHALL BE EXCLUSIVE TO THE INITIATOR OF THE RELEVANT COLLABORATION SESSION (“Collaboration Initiator”).
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 12:39:52 PM
sugarhai wrote:
Quote:
Zazzle's new terms seek to clarify in subsections thereafter the limitations of this "right to exploit the copyright of the collaborative content". For example, it can only be purchased; neither party to the collaboration are granted a right to upload it for sale.


does it say that neither party can upload it for sale?

it seems to say that the initiator does have the right to make public products and not just on zazzle but anywhere...

Quote:
THE RIGHT TO EXPLOIT THE COPYRIGHT TO THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE AS A “PUBLIC” PRODUCT SHALL BE EXCLUSIVE TO THE INITIATOR OF THE RELEVANT COLLABORATION SESSION (“Collaboration Initiator”).


Quote:
6.1.5.2. Collaborators may create private (i.e., for purchase by the Collaborator, not posted for sale on the Site) Products featuring the Collaborative Content.

So does this mean both collaborators, or only the one invited by the 'collaboration initiator'?

I honestly can't tell, though I think since a 'collaboration initiator' and the collaboration invitees are all co-collaborators (my word, not in the terms), it seems like it should restrict any of them.

But then we get this:

Quote:
6.1.5.3. COLLABORATORS WHO ARE NOT THE COLLABORATION INITIATOR HEREBY AGREE THAT THEY WILL NOT UPLOAD THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT TO THE SITE AS A PUBLIC PRODUCT, AND THAT DOING SO COULD BE GROUNDS FOR ZAZZLE, IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION, TO DELETE SUCH PRODUCT AND/OR TAKE OTHER ACTION UP TO AND INCLUDING DELETION OF SUCH COLLABORATOR’S ZAZZLE ACCOUNT.


And the section you mention, about the collaboration initiator's "RIGHT TO EXPLOIT THE COPYRIGHT TO THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE AS A “PUBLIC” PRODUCT".

That has me thinking that the collaboration initiator can publish it for sale - even if they initiate the collaboration on a product already posted for sale in the marketplace by a different designer - who will be completely unaware that any of this is taking place. ETA: That's in theory; in practice, it sounds like other designers have tested this, and aren't seeing a button that let's them post the collaboration for sale?

What a mess.

But to be clear, I'm not telling anyone else what to do. I emptied my store when "Chat" was introduced, so I'm personally unaffected, so long as I don't start offering new products. I kept my stores 'alive' (though hidden) with the thought that I might one day return if things change. Now? I would say I feel a sense of relief that I don't have to make painful decisions because I'd already made them. But I feel the pain of designers who are still wrestling with all of this in the void of Zazzle's deafening silence.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 12:41:23 PM
sugarhai wrote:
Quote:
Zazzle's new terms seek to clarify in subsections thereafter the limitations of this "right to exploit the copyright of the collaborative content". For example, it can only be purchased; neither party to the collaboration are granted a right to upload it for sale.


does it say that neither party can upload it for sale?

it seems to say that the initiator does have the right to make public products and not just on zazzle but anywhere...

Quote:
THE RIGHT TO EXPLOIT THE COPYRIGHT TO THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE AS A “PUBLIC” PRODUCT SHALL BE EXCLUSIVE TO THE INITIATOR OF THE RELEVANT COLLABORATION SESSION (“Collaboration Initiator”).


talk about a contradiction in terms...
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 12:48:04 PM
My theory is that if someone starts from a blank, then initiates a collaboration with someone else, the initiator might be able to post the finished collaboration for sale. The new terms of service seem to support that, but it's really unclear.

If they start instead from an existing product, and initiate collaboration with someone else (including through chat with the designer whose product it is), my hope would be that Zazzle doesn't let the collaboration initiator post the finished collaboration for sale. And that they still pay the original designer their full royalty, absent "Create" images or elements being introduced into the scenario.

Ugh. Even if it doesn't turn out to be as horrible as it all sounds, it's become way too complex for me to deal with.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 12:57:06 PM
Quote:
That has me thinking that the collaboration initiator can publish it for sale - even if they initiate the collaboration on a product already posted for sale in the marketplace by a different designer - who will be completely unaware that any of this is taking place.


that's what it seems to say to me too

and also this

Quote:
26.2. You retain all ownership rights to your Content submitted to the Site. However, (...snip...) you grant other Users the license rights detailed elsewhere herein (e.g., for Collaborative Content, per Section 6).


and I'm not removing, closing, or changing anything in my stores, I'm waiting for the terms to be fixed or not fixed before I do anything

the agreement terminates when you close your store so any rights you give a User will also terminate (that's how I'm reading it, I think it's right but really idk)
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 1:30:56 PM
Above all else at this point, it would be nice if we could have just a bit more than radio silence from zazzle. There are a multitude of issues with these new changes, over which many designers have voiced serious concerns in this forum. After all, that is the exact purpose of this forum - "feedback and suggestions."

So, Zazzle, can we expect some form of correspondence or response clarifying these new terms? I for one would like to know if there is anything re: indemnification, or at least if there will be plans for such language to be included, since the drafting of this policy appears so loose, and since you already have my designs, I have not consented to a wholesale waiver of my copyright rights, yet you are *already* allowing others to collaborate on my work, and have been since before I logged in and even learned of these new terms. I have not - and I do not - consent to this.

There are serious concerns here. They need to be addressed, or at the very least acknowledged so that the designers can make an informed decision as to what steps need to be taken.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 4:28:30 PM
Hi all, I have been trying to follow this and trying to understand. I've not been able to go through every post.

These are my issues I can see...

Can collaborators make an entirely new product and put it for sale? And if so then how does your brand name get displayed if at all? What happens if I leave zazzle, does a perpetual licence mean that my designs remain on zazzle after I leave, or, infact if I have hidden a design?

I have no say in whether my designs get used by someone else, or choose who I work with?

I will have difficulties knowing whether one of my designs is a copyright theft issue or a collaboration.

For those who have bought commercial licences for designs you would be, in effect, in breach of that licence when collaborating with another artist for shared royalties?

It takes me 10 to 20 hours to produce one of my unicorn illustrations and somebody else just adds a graduated tone or a bit of text and we split the royalties? Some lowly designers are going to have a field day piggybacking onto some of the more accomplished designers.

What happens with social media sharing? I don't think I'd like my design collaborated and they share it. What if it's used inappropriately. What if it makes me look unprofessional? What if I just don't want people to do that? What if I have no attribution, I will not be able to trace or control what happens to my work. How can I check if its IP theft or not?

I have 1500 products to make hidden before 22nd else I lose my rights!!!

The terms of service looks like a one way street.

I think I have to hide my products and go through the toss with a fine toothed comb, but I think I get it. 🤔

I simply don't want people making derivative work of my art.



Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:31:21 PM
OK, I haven't yet been admitted to the FB group, but others have posted about consulting attorneys, so Zazzle knows that some designers have sought legal advice. So, they may as well as read this as well.

I have a online friend whom I first met in an online writer's group. She is also an attorney who lives in Los Angeles, and she is licensed to practice in California. Whatever others said about Zazzle being an Irish company, they still list the address for their corporate headquarters as San Jose. Consequently, I have contacted my friend and just sent her the links to the current ToS, the new ToS, the new licensing agreement, the royalty agreeement, and the privacy policy via FB. She was active on FB when I sent them, and she has read the messages. It may take her a while to assess all of that information, and she may want to consult another attorney, but should we want to take action and she determines that we have legal grounds, I have asked her if she sould be interested in representing us as a class.

Marilyn and I are reacting negatively in paricular to the fact that Zazzle activated their new tools over this weekend before giving us the answers that they say that they are formulating to the questions, comments, and concerns posted on the forum. As a consequence of Zazzle's activation of the new tools, we have been forced to disrupt our income producing writing in order to protect the copyrights on our designs. However, we know we are not alone in disrupting our work to protect our copyrights because others have posted to say that they, too, are taking the time to hide their designs. To Marilyn and I, this represents a potential financial loss as a result of Zazzle's actions. Incidentally, if you go to the news page in one of your stores, you will see that Zazzle posted that the new tools would not be live until November 22. I will be sending my friend a screen shot of that page, since she doesn't have a Zazzle store.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:45:15 PM
Zazzle does have offices in Ireland. Some of the moderators are in Ireland. They have customer service people there. I read somewhere on the forums a few years ago that some cards that are purchased on some or all European domains are printed there. The main printing facility is in Reno, Nevada. But their base is in California.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 8:47:26 PM
I also sent my friend a link to this forum so that she can read the issues and concerns being raised. I didn't direct her to any particular thread. I just sent a link to the Feedback Forum. I think that the relevant threads are pretty clear from their subject lines.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 9:49:03 PM
"User Agreement 11/22/19" wrote:

1.2. "Content" (i) means any and all artwork, assets, audio clips, data, designs, digital images, drawings, elements, graphics, images, information, metadata, photographs, Product specifications, sketches, stitch files and text, or any combination thereof that you send to Zazzle for placement on the Site or on physical or electronic products made by or for Zazzle ("Products"); and (ii) includes both Primary and Secondary Content (as defined in the Designer License Agreement) for distribution or sale on a physical Product in the Marketplace on the Site "Public Products" as a design for Products available to other visitors to the Site, ("User(s)"), or in a promotion therefor or depiction thereof, you grant the additional rights set forth in the Designer License Agreement that is incorporated herein by this reference. Your participation in Zazzle's Associates Program is also governed by the terms and conditions of the Associates Agreement that is incorporated by this reference herein. If you act as an Associate or a Designer (as these terms are defined in the Associates Agreement and Designer License Agreement, respectively) in accordance with either the Designer License Agreement or the Associates Agreement, then the terms of the Volume Bonus Agreement that are incorporated by this reference herein also apply. In addition, when you use any of our services, you will be subject to our Privacy Policy, Shipping and Returns Policy and Zazzle Black Shipping Program, as applicable and they are incorporated into this Agreement by this reference. This Agreement, together with the Designer License Agreement, the Associates Agreement, the Privacy Policy, the Shipping and Returns Policy and the Volume Bonus Agreement are collectively, the “Policies.”
[...]

6. Collaborate:

6.1. In order to facilitate cooperative Content creation between Users on the Site, Zazzle offers a collaboration function that can be used between Users on certain parts of the site (“Collaboration”).

6.1.1 The Collaboration function allows Users to invite other Members[3] to work together to create Content.

6.1.2. When using Collaboration, the name registered to your Zazzle Account will be visible to other Collaborators (as defined below).

6.1.3. Users may use Chat to aid in their Collaboration.

6.1.4. Any text and/or other media uploaded by Users (“Assets”) who participate in a certain Collaboration (each, a “Collaborator”) shall be considered “Content,” as defined in Section 1.2 hereof.

6.1.5. The copyright to any Content that results from a Collaboration, whether a “final” product or in-progress (collectively, “Collaborative Content”), may be jointly owned by all Collaborators under 17 U.S. Code Title 17, but each hereby agrees that THE RIGHT TO EXPLOIT THE COPYRIGHT TO THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE AS A “PUBLIC” PRODUCT SHALL BE EXCLUSIVE TO THE INITIATOR OF THE RELEVANT COLLABORATION SESSION (“Collaboration Initiator”). EACH COLLABORATOR HEREBY GRANTS TO THE COLLABORATION INITIATOR A NONEXCLUSIVE, PERPETUAL, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE AND TRANSFERABLE RIGHT AND LICENSE TO USE, COPY, REPRODUCE, PREPARE DERIVATIVE WORKS OF, MODIFY, PUBLICLY DISPLAY, PERFORM AND DISTRIBUTE ASSETS AS CONTAINED IN THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE. For the sake of clarity:

6.1.5.1. The Collaboration Initiator is only granted the aforementioned rights in the Collaborative Content, and not to any of the Assets provided by any other Collaborators.

6.1.5.2. Collaborators may create private (i.e., for purchase by the Collaborator, not posted for sale on the Site) Products featuring the Collaborative Content.

6.1.5.3. COLLABORATORS WHO ARE NOT THE COLLABORATION INITIATOR HEREBY AGREE THAT THEY WILL NOT UPLOAD THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT TO THE SITE AS A PUBLIC PRODUCT, AND THAT DOING SO COULD BE GROUNDS FOR ZAZZLE, IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION, TO DELETE SUCH PRODUCT AND/OR TAKE OTHER ACTION UP TO AND INCLUDING DELETION OF SUCH COLLABORATOR’S ZAZZLE ACCOUNT.


Initiator clearly is granted a NONEXCLUSIVE, PERPETUAL, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE AND TRANSFERABLE RIGHT AND LICENSE TO USE, COPY, REPRODUCE, PREPARE DERIVATIVE WORKS OF, MODIFY, PUBLICLY DISPLAY, PERFORM AND DISTRIBUTE ASSETS AS CONTAINED IN THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE.

This a lifetime do what you want and where you want license. When it comes to the create tool, there are file size up to at least 11,000 pixel. That is big enough for any king sized bed cover and comes with a download function. And again zazzle is lazy and covers one section for both areas and thereby passing out (c) all rights restricted content.

Nothing gives us the guarantee that a download button won't follow but even without, the right has been given and the collaborations started now can be picked up again on the 23rd of November when the new terms are in effect with a lifelong right to do whatever where ever aside from disassemble and use the assets on it own. Nothing says the changes need to be transformative or even substantial, both terms in legalese are open to frightful wide range of interpretation and debated among experts fiercely.

Sadly we have no clue whether or which of our designs ended up in collaborations since the activation.

I'm hiding a ton of my stuff and take myself out of the busiest season of the year. It hurts! ... but this is the only way to do damage control, that I know of that gives me the option to stuff zazzle with material where I don't give a sh... what happens with it.



Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 10:38:34 PM
vivendulies wrote:
"User Agreement 11/22/19" wrote:

1.2. "Content" (i) means any and all artwork, assets, audio clips, data, designs, digital images, drawings, elements, graphics, images, information, metadata, photographs, Product specifications, sketches, stitch files and text, or any combination thereof that you send to Zazzle for placement on the Site or on physical or electronic products made by or for Zazzle ("Products"); and (ii) includes both Primary and Secondary Content (as defined in the Designer License Agreement) for distribution or sale on a physical Product in the Marketplace on the Site "Public Products" as a design for Products available to other visitors to the Site, ("User(s)"), or in a promotion therefor or depiction thereof, you grant the additional rights set forth in the Designer License Agreement that is incorporated herein by this reference. Your participation in Zazzle's Associates Program is also governed by the terms and conditions of the Associates Agreement that is incorporated by this reference herein. If you act as an Associate or a Designer (as these terms are defined in the Associates Agreement and Designer License Agreement, respectively) in accordance with either the Designer License Agreement or the Associates Agreement, then the terms of the Volume Bonus Agreement that are incorporated by this reference herein also apply. In addition, when you use any of our services, you will be subject to our Privacy Policy, Shipping and Returns Policy and Zazzle Black Shipping Program, as applicable and they are incorporated into this Agreement by this reference. This Agreement, together with the Designer License Agreement, the Associates Agreement, the Privacy Policy, the Shipping and Returns Policy and the Volume Bonus Agreement are collectively, the “Policies.”
[...]

6. Collaborate:

6.1. In order to facilitate cooperative Content creation between Users on the Site, Zazzle offers a collaboration function that can be used between Users on certain parts of the site (“Collaboration”).

6.1.1 The Collaboration function allows Users to invite other Members[3] to work together to create Content.

6.1.2. When using Collaboration, the name registered to your Zazzle Account will be visible to other Collaborators (as defined below).

6.1.3. Users may use Chat to aid in their Collaboration.

6.1.4. Any text and/or other media uploaded by Users (“Assets”) who participate in a certain Collaboration (each, a “Collaborator”) shall be considered “Content,” as defined in Section 1.2 hereof.

6.1.5. The copyright to any Content that results from a Collaboration, whether a “final” product or in-progress (collectively, “Collaborative Content”), may be jointly owned by all Collaborators under 17 U.S. Code Title 17, but each hereby agrees that THE RIGHT TO EXPLOIT THE COPYRIGHT TO THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE AS A “PUBLIC” PRODUCT SHALL BE EXCLUSIVE TO THE INITIATOR OF THE RELEVANT COLLABORATION SESSION (“Collaboration Initiator”). EACH COLLABORATOR HEREBY GRANTS TO THE COLLABORATION INITIATOR A NONEXCLUSIVE, PERPETUAL, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE AND TRANSFERABLE RIGHT AND LICENSE TO USE, COPY, REPRODUCE, PREPARE DERIVATIVE WORKS OF, MODIFY, PUBLICLY DISPLAY, PERFORM AND DISTRIBUTE ASSETS AS CONTAINED IN THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE. For the sake of clarity:

6.1.5.1. The Collaboration Initiator is only granted the aforementioned rights in the Collaborative Content, and not to any of the Assets provided by any other Collaborators.

6.1.5.2. Collaborators may create private (i.e., for purchase by the Collaborator, not posted for sale on the Site) Products featuring the Collaborative Content.

6.1.5.3. COLLABORATORS WHO ARE NOT THE COLLABORATION INITIATOR HEREBY AGREE THAT THEY WILL NOT UPLOAD THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT TO THE SITE AS A PUBLIC PRODUCT, AND THAT DOING SO COULD BE GROUNDS FOR ZAZZLE, IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION, TO DELETE SUCH PRODUCT AND/OR TAKE OTHER ACTION UP TO AND INCLUDING DELETION OF SUCH COLLABORATOR’S ZAZZLE ACCOUNT.


Initiator clearly is granted a NONEXCLUSIVE, PERPETUAL, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE AND TRANSFERABLE RIGHT AND LICENSE TO USE, COPY, REPRODUCE, PREPARE DERIVATIVE WORKS OF, MODIFY, PUBLICLY DISPLAY, PERFORM AND DISTRIBUTE ASSETS AS CONTAINED IN THE COLLABORATIVE CONTENT ON THE SITE.

This a lifetime do what you want and where you want license. When it comes to the create tool, there are file size up to at least 11,000 pixel. That is big enough for any king sized bed cover and comes with a download function. And again zazzle is lazy and covers one section for both areas and thereby passing out (c) all rights restricted content.

Nothing gives us the guarantee that a download button won't follow but even without, the right has been given and the collaborations started now can be picked up again on the 23rd of November when the new terms are in effect with a lifelong right to do whatever where ever aside from disassemble and use the assets on it own. Nothing says the changes need to be transformative or even substantial, both terms in legalese are open to frightful wide range of interpretation and debated among experts fiercely.

Sadly we have no clue whether or which of our designs ended up in collaborations since the activation.

I'm hiding a ton of my stuff and take myself out of the busiest season of the year. It hurts! ... but this is the only way to do damage control, that I know of that gives me the option to stuff zazzle with material where I don't give a sh... what happens with it.





If I catch someone with works from me, that will be expensive for this person.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:17:07 PM
GabiwArt wrote:


If I catch someone with works from me, that will be expensive for this person.


You might discover that this can be rather expensive for you. Armored with zazzle terms any of your current content can be hijacked now and made legal after Nov 22nd 2019 should zazzle leave the terms as is.

We have no way of knowing what was used in a collaboration since the release of the collaboration beta feature and is sitting pretty in the saved design area of others.
Posted: Saturday, November 09, 2019 11:26:05 PM
vivendulies wrote:
GabiwArt wrote:


If I catch someone with works from me, that will be expensive for this person.


You might discover that this can be rather expensive for you. Armored with zazzle terms any of your current content can be hijacked now and made legal after Nov 22nd 2019 should zazzle leave the terms as is.

We have no way of knowing what was used in a collaboration since the release of the collaboration beta feature and is sitting pretty in the saved design area of others.


This beta feature should not be so yet. I also can not understand why Zazzle does this already. And if Zazzle does not completely change everything and even better introduces an opt-out, my pictures will be available from 22.11. no more. For before, this weird Zazzle rule does not apply.
Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 12:22:06 AM
GabiwArt wrote:
vivendulies wrote:
GabiwArt wrote:


If I catch someone with works from me, that will be expensive for this person.


You might discover that this can be rather expensive for you. Armored with zazzle terms any of your current content can be hijacked now and made legal after Nov 22nd 2019 should zazzle leave the terms as is.

We have no way of knowing what was used in a collaboration since the release of the collaboration beta feature and is sitting pretty in the saved design area of others.


This beta feature should not be so yet. I also can not understand why Zazzle does this already. And if Zazzle does not completely change everything and even better introduces an opt-out, my pictures will be available from 22.11. no more. For before, this weird Zazzle rule does not apply.


Your right should, but court is fickle and if you stay the terms apply to any art you submitted to zazzle and is on their server. The court may agree with you that zazzle was obliged to clear any save design area at this point but the initiator may still be allowed to keep it and you do the exercise all over this time with zazzle as your opponent.

It is a sh*tty mess!
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