These "discussions" are hurting other designers 4 pages: [1] 2 3 4
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 4:56:47 PM
The discussions, particularly the ones on Create, are causing some designers to tear up and close their stores. There are points about Zazzle including the right to provide MP designs in with downloadable content that are causing this panic and reaction by some designers. Those points are being pounded so that people feel they need to take their designs off Zazzle immediately to protect the design. It is like seeing a potential fire hazard in a crowded theater and repeatedly yelling, "Fire." Some people have become influencers in these discussions and repeat the scary stuff over and over and repeat it to answer anyone that tries to calm things down. If you are an influencer, like it or not, you have a responsibility to consider what you are influencing other people to do. My expectation is that many of these posters will still be here on November 23rd, but they will have caused many others to have torn up their stores and left.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 5:06:59 PM
Agreed. (That's kind of why I haven't involved myself in the discussions)

I already saw a post in Nifty's FB group where someone noticed some shops she was promoting has shut their stores down since the news, and it's messing with her Nifty.

At this point, I don't think any of us designers know for sure what any of this really means, so should refrain from panicking and spreading panic.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 5:13:21 PM
I have opinions, and I have stated them, but I have also said "I'll just wait and see".

I have ceased publishing for the moment, but that is ok because I am promoting more. In all I have pinned today I have only come across one item that was gone by the time I clicked on it, but that could have been a glitch rather than a shutdown.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 5:22:28 PM
absolutely wait and see!

zazzle has a history of listening

my prediction is that this will be fixed

but it isn't right atm so it's good to say something...
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 5:41:44 PM
MarBethHomeDecor wrote:
The discussions, particularly the ones on Create, are causing some designers to tear up and close their stores. There are points about Zazzle including the right to provide MP designs in with downloadable content that are causing this panic and reaction by some designers. Those points are being pounded so that people feel they need to take their designs off Zazzle immediately to protect the design. It is like seeing a potential fire hazard in a crowded theater and repeatedly yelling, "Fire." Some people have become influencers in these discussions and repeat the scary stuff over and over and repeat it to answer anyone that tries to calm things down. If you are an influencer, like it or not, you have a responsibility to consider what you are influencing other people to do. My expectation is that many of these posters will still be here on November 23rd, but they will have caused many others to have torn up their stores and left.


You act as if we are dealing with children here.
They are of age and they do what they do on their own accord.

[EDIT: most of it withdrawn. What the heck? Why do I justify my posts here!]

You are old enough to start a business. You are old enough to make your own decisions. Period.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 1:26:52 AM
My reasons for closing down my store are my own and my it comes down to personal choice. I made it with a clear head and not under the influence of someone else's opinions.

Quite frankly I think that my list of disadvantages vs. advantages for being on Zazzle has skewed towards the former for the last few weeks now, similar as it did before with my DeviantArt account - although those reasons were not related to how the artists were being treated but rather the content and image that DA went towards which I didn't want to be part of at all.

The disadvantages list had started to outweigh the advantages and these latest terms and conditions simply broke the scale for me (i.e., old adage of the last straw that broke the camels' back).

I was sad about closing the store. Do I regret closing it a few days later, no, the only thing I regret was building it on Zazzle in the first place and not on some other POD or even on my own website - cause I'm certainly not going to kick myself in the teeth and salami-slice my own earnings into non-existence.

And if I were inclined to give my art away for free (because that is where I felt I was heading here) I'll do it on my own terms. For the last few weeks I have been feeling that the relationship between Zazzle and myself had become less of a partnership and more of I'm building Zazzle's dream for free instead of my own, being kicked in the teeth for it and I was not enjoying it anymore.

This is my hobby, not my main income - which means that my main reasons for leaving depends of the quality of the experience and makes my choice for uprooting a lot different to those who have it as their primary income.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 1:50:08 AM
vivendulies wrote:


You act as if we are dealing with children here.
They are of age and they do what they do on their own accord.

[EDIT: most of it withdrawn. What the heck? Why do I justify my posts here!]

You are old enough to start a business. You are old enough to make your own decisions. Period.


If you think you are dealing with adults WHY DO YOU CONTINUOUSLY HARP on your view of what is happening.

Let these ADULTS! read what has been presented and come to their own conclusions.

Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 2:02:45 AM
eclecticpastime wrote:
vivendulies wrote:


You act as if we are dealing with children here.
They are of age and they do what they do on their own accord.

[EDIT: most of it withdrawn. What the heck? Why do I justify my posts here!]

You are old enough to start a business. You are old enough to make your own decisions. Period.


If you think you are dealing with adults WHY DO YOU CONTINUOUSLY HARP on your view of what is happening.

Let these ADULTS! read what has been presented and come to their own conclusions.



Because adults exchange ideas and create awareness.
What to make and how to deal with my thoughts on the matter in the end is up to those who care to read it.

And they can and will.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 2:40:54 AM
On the flip side you are showing what an extremely poor opinion you have of your fellow designers. You stated your opinion what? 1 dozen times or more please show some respect for those *adults* you claim are reading this forum.

Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 2:48:00 AM
MarBethHomeDecor wrote:
The discussions, particularly the ones on Create, are causing some designers to tear up and close their stores. There are points about Zazzle including the right to provide MP designs in with downloadable content that are causing this panic and reaction by some designers. Those points are being pounded so that people feel they need to take their designs off Zazzle immediately to protect the design. It is like seeing a potential fire hazard in a crowded theater and repeatedly yelling, "Fire." Some people have become influencers in these discussions and repeat the scary stuff over and over and repeat it to answer anyone that tries to calm things down. If you are an influencer, like it or not, you have a responsibility to consider what you are influencing other people to do. My expectation is that many of these posters will still be here on November 23rd, but they will have caused many others to have torn up their stores and left.


I think you're shooting the messenger here, there are serious problems in the new TOS that need addressing, it's not wrong surely to point this out and discuss it.
It's also not wrong to discuss how to deal with this if zazzle don't act - there is time before the 22nd, for zazzle to respond or not, and for people to think, plan, and make decisions about what to do.

Personally I'm leaning towards removing my favorite images, and maybe leaving weaker, older stuff. I'm worried that designs that have already sold may never really be removed. Really, these are confusing times, and finding out facts and information are a positive.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 2:48:30 AM
eclecticpastime wrote:
On the flip side you are showing what an extremely poor opinion you have of your fellow designers. You stated your opinion what? 1 dozen times or more please show some respect for those *adults* you claim are reading this forum.



Well, see here.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 2:50:24 AM
Oh well, we survived any prophesied apocalypse till now, 2012 included (enjoyed the movie, btw), I'm sure, we'll survive also that one.

There is a reason, the mods didn't reply last Friday. I'm certain, Zazzle is actually working hard behind the scenes to analyze our concerns and to polish the whole thing where needed, mainly to assure no third-party license agreements nor copyright and privacy laws may get infringed. I doubt it's in Zazzle's interest to lose a significant amount of their designers, especially top sellers, and to get in a clinch with stock companies, what would result in taking down probably at least 60-70% of their marketplace designs, bestsellers included.

That said, stock image license terms are as complex, unclear, wide-ranged and contradictory as Zazzle's ones, so are software terms in general, let apart many (most) laws and legal terms that are open to interpretations - and sometimes exploits. That's business as usual.

Wait and see and using common sense is the name of the game right now. There is plenty of time to shut all down if really needed, that time has not come yet.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 3:01:11 AM
PetsDreamlands wrote:
Oh well, we survived any prophesied apocalypse till now, 2012 included (enjoyed the movie, btw), I'm sure, we'll survive also that one.

There is a reason, the mods didn't reply last Friday. I'm certain, Zazzle is actually working hard behind the scenes to analyze our concerns and to polish the whole thing where needed, mainly to assure no third-party license agreements nor copyright and privacy laws may get infringed. I doubt it's in Zazzle's interest to lose a significant amount of their designers, especially top sellers, and to get in a clinch with stock companies, what would result in taking down probably at least 60-70% of their marketplace designs, bestsellers included.

That said, stock image license terms are as complex, unclear, wide-ranged and contradictory as Zazzle's ones, so are software terms in general, let apart many (most) laws and legal terms that are open to interpretations - and sometimes exploits. That's business as usual.

Wait and see and using common sense is the name of the game right now. There is plenty of time to shut all down if really needed, that time has not come yet.


I chose my words as wisely as I could and stuck with very few exceptions to mere facts. I resent the implication that I prophesied or brought upon any kind of apocalypse.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 4:01:52 AM
vivendulies wrote:

I chose my words as wisely as I could and stuck with very few exceptions to mere facts. I resent the implication that I prophesied or brought upon any kind of apocalypse.

I was generally speaking, not explicitly referring to anyone in particular. What doesn't mean, you aren't contributing to the general anxiety to a certain extent, but it's your right to express yourself and I have no right to forbid you to do so.

What I'm trying to say in my recent posts is to keep calm and not to act in haste, especially when it comes to actions that are irreversible. It's not Nov 22 and Zazzle is absolutely aware of all our concerns. All has been said from our part and it's their turn now to react. So let's be responsible and not unnecessarily heat up the whole discussion until we know more.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 4:06:35 AM
It would help if the fear mongers who lit and keep relighting the fire when Zazzle team and others have tried repeatedly to allay the fears (myself) took a break for their own benefit mainly to wait and see. Many of us have made practical suggestions (to Zazzle) as to how the contract needs re-wording etc. to make the points they've confirmed in feedback (news forum) match up. We all agree it's 'ambiguous' in parts.

Zazzle team who moderate this forum state repeatedly they're mainly away at weekends. So don't expect a response at weekends and then expect a delayed response because hundreds of posts to wade through isn't easy, hence my suggestion to keep 'official feedback' a little less 'emotive and more practical' and keep the 'full blown feedback' to unoffocial threads (thus you get it all) but that point got lost because the fire lighters (who appear oblivious to their antics) see what they want and ignore the rest.

I am embarrassed these forums are public.

Re those shutting up shop, there was never any need for that knee jerk response and it saddened me too that was happenning especially as one of those persons I myself introduced to Zazzle so long ago they've obviously forgotten it.

Don't be so quick to stomp on those taking time out of their day to help you. You are aware an NDA is required for the create program right?
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 4:49:02 AM
PetsDreamlands wrote:
vivendulies wrote:

I chose my words as wisely as I could and stuck with very few exceptions to mere facts. I resent the implication that I prophesied or brought upon any kind of apocalypse.

I was generally speaking, not explicitly referring to anyone in particular. What doesn't mean, you aren't contributing to the general anxiety to a certain extent, but it's your right to express yourself and I have no right to forbid you to do so.[...]


I will not deny that I contributed to some anxiety, but in the end they are based on facts and not on any of my fears.

I described a vulnerability within the contract. I pointed to two issues where the one phrase has an impact. Not in theory but real life consequences. We agreed to a nasty contract with the current terms and the terms before those, where we relinquish more rights than ever necessary. But a decade of business practice served trust building that it wouldn't be abused.

At the same time there was much ado about privacy and about royalty splits, where I didn't contribute at all to the anxiety.

I think the OP is picking scapegoats for a situation that was caused by the changes not by those who point the finger on those changes.

Don't shoot the messenger.
Happy
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 5:56:01 AM
I am very grateful to all of the designers who raised serious and important concerns. Thank you to all of you.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 6:00:54 AM
Nellie wrote:
I am very grateful to all of the designers who raised serious and important concerns. Thank you to all of you.


+1 Roses Roses Roses
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 6:10:29 AM
BarnsIowa wrote:
Nellie wrote:
I am very grateful to all of the designers who raised serious and important concerns. Thank you to all of you.


+1 Roses Roses Roses



+1
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 6:12:50 AM
vivendulies wrote:
PetsDreamlands wrote:
vivendulies wrote:

I chose my words as wisely as I could and stuck with very few exceptions to mere facts. I resent the implication that I prophesied or brought upon any kind of apocalypse.

I was generally speaking, not explicitly referring to anyone in particular. What doesn't mean, you aren't contributing to the general anxiety to a certain extent, but it's your right to express yourself and I have no right to forbid you to do so.[...]


I will not deny that I contributed to some anxiety, but in the end they are based on facts and not on any of my fears.

I described a vulnerability within the contract. I pointed to two issues where the one phrase has an impact. Not in theory but real life consequences. We agreed to a nasty contract with the current terms and the terms before those, where we relinquish more rights than ever necessary. But a decade of business practice served trust building that it wouldn't be abused.

At the same time there was much ado about privacy and about royalty splits, where I didn't contribute at all to the anxiety.

I think the OP is picking scapegoats for a situation that was caused by the changes not by those who point the finger on those changes.

Don't shoot the messenger.
Happy


Stating is one thing. Repeating it as a dire warning and drowning out others until you rile people into reacting in fear is another. If somebody tries to give a work around, you respond with how it won't work.

We all get that there is an issue with the wording and licensed products but you have pushed the some day Zazzle could take your copyrights and the it will cause an issue if you have to defend a copyright infringement and you will be violatiing your license until people reacted in panic.

If somebody says,

1. Don't chat
2. Adjust your royalty
3. Trust Zazzle until they give you a real reason not to trust them but understand that if you don't trust them, then just getting them to change the words in the 11/22 TOS is really meaningless because it is not a binding contract that guarantees you rights for a specified period. It is just a statement that this is how they will be operating at this time.

You are repeatedly there to downplay it. Then you finally say that after all that you said you are not leaving. Like I said, you found a potential fire hazard so you are yelling fire repeatedly in a crowded theater and causing panic.

Please let some people post and calm people into waiting before any more designers take an irreversible action.


I will repeat raising issues is one thing but it has gone beyond that.

Also repeating terms of service is not a contract with guaranteed rights for a specified time. It is just a statement of how a company will be conducting business on their website at this time.


Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 6:15:43 AM
I'm embarrassed that fellow Designers speak to each like this and name call. There are emotional issues, to be sure, and we will sometimes say things we regret (me included), but generally, I would describe the other threads as being "passionate."

I don't see anyone needlessly reposting the same points, for the most part. What I see are points being repeated - by both "sides," for lack of a better term - in response to new questions, designers newly entering the discussion, and for clarification of finer points. That is happening because the conversation doesn't stop while we wait for Zazzle to respond.

For my situation, Zazzle doesn't have to make my designs downloadable for me to be in violation of my agreements with other services. I violate those other agreements the minute I agree to let Zazzle make them downloadable, whether by design or poorly constructed legal provisions. Based on facts, I know this to be true for others. Whether those others understand that distinction or not is another story.

When only the "vocal few" speak up, they're dismissed by Zazzle - see historical threads on accessibility issues and the new design tool, the referral situation, chat feature, and more. The conversation needs to include many and be public. That's when Zazzle takes action. Trying to halt the discussion is futile, so I hope everyone will partake respectfully and let their voices be heard by ZAZZLE. I believe both "sides" have good intentions and should be heard.

Don't be so quick to stomp on those taking time out of their day to help you. Indeed. I can agree with that.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 6:42:31 AM
RoyK_is_a_She wrote:
I'm embarrassed that fellow Designers speak to each like this and name call.



Speak to each other how? The OP just states that the 'discussions' are causing people to panic and tear up and close stores. I would think that everyone would want to make a statement telling people not to do that.

What name calling? The only name I attached to anyone is influencer that is a good thing.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 6:54:03 AM
MarBethHolidays wrote:
RoyK_is_a_She wrote:
I'm embarrassed that fellow Designers speak to each like this and name call.



Speak to each other how? The OP just states that the 'discussions' are causing people to panic and tear up and close stores. I would think that everyone would want to make a statement telling people not to do that.

What name calling? The only name I attached to anyone is influencer that is a good thing.


Influencer here is hardly meant as a positive attribute since you associate the influencing with hurting.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 7:29:25 AM
LeahG wrote:
Re those shutting up shop, there was never any need for that knee jerk response

I'll agree that no one should shut down their shops as a knee jerk response.

That said, we can't necessarily know all the reasons a person may have for shutting down their shops, unless they tell us. There's plenty I haven't said about my decision to do so, plenty I simply won't.

Let it be crystal clear though that my decision to do so was well-considered, after spending months weighing my options. I had come close to doing so several times before these latest announcements. I've honestly hung on a lot longer than I should, making excuses to myself and trying new things.

Each of us has our own breaking point. It may be one thing, or a preponderance of many issues. Mostly the latter for me, until the response we got from Zazzle about "Chat" made me tally up the pros and cons yet again, and as a result deciding I'd simply had enough.

It might look like a "knee jerk" to some of you, but there's a lot that went into my decision, and no one here is privy to all of it.

It was demanded of me elsewhere by another designer that I should state in every post I make that I've closed my shops and won't be back. I won't do that, because it's not actually true.

My shops are empty, but I haven't asked to have them removed. I haven't asked to have my account deleted. Despite the negatives outweighing the positives for me at the moment, there still exists the possibility that I would come back, with all new art. To that extent, I am taking a "wait and see" approach. But it's unlikely to happen any time soon, and not without seeing some things changing here.

I understand that I'm in no position to make demands of Zazzle. Emptying my shops has in it the element of not tolerating some of the things being demanded of me by them, but there's a ton more to it than that.

While I await changes that may not be forthcoming, my shop will remain empty.

ETA: No one should panic and shut down their shops without extremely careful consideration of their options.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 7:48:24 AM
Felosarix wrote:
ETA: No one should panic and shut down their shops without extremely careful consideration of their options.

I agree. All that work? Particularly for those with many thousands of designs? No one should rush headlong over a cliff. And I know you haven't, Fuzzy. You've been wavering back and forth on your decision for a really long time, and though the chat thing was your final inciting force, I know that's all it was. I'm sure, many others know this too.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 7:54:58 AM
Colorwash wrote:
Felosarix wrote:
ETA: No one should panic and shut down their shops without extremely careful consideration of their options.

I agree. All that work? Particularly for those with many thousands of designs? No one should rush headlong over a cliff. And I know you haven't, Fuzzy. You've been wavering back and forth on your decision for a really long time, and though the chat thing was your final inciting force, I know that's all it was. I'm sure, many others know this too.

Indeed, I've been wavering pretty much since I started here five years ago. Laughing
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 7:56:26 AM
I appreciate the information as I am not that great at understanding terms. It's helpful to me so that I can make a decision to stay or to leave.
I think we all agree that clarifcation of the download blurb in the terms must be updated to something that says in writing our artwork will not be available for download.
There needs to be a convenient way to set our products to no customization if we want to without having to redo our entire store.
There needs to be an opt out for chat.
I do not want to share my royalties. They are already at a lower setting than I would like. The cost of secondary content should not cost me a royalty deduction. Instead maybe offer the customer a free mug once they reach a certain amount for the design/product or free shipping.

I have no plans atm to shut down my store or set it to hidden.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 8:46:42 AM
MarBethHolidays wrote:
RoyK_is_a_She wrote:
I'm embarrassed that fellow Designers speak to each like this and name call.



Speak to each other how? The OP just states that the 'discussions' are causing people to panic and tear up and close stores. I would think that everyone would want to make a statement telling people not to do that.

What name calling? The only name I attached to anyone is influencer that is a good thing.

It's not my place to try to tell you what you "should" or "have" to do, MarBeth, so I will say that, for me, if I didn't do a thing mentioned in someone's post, I don't assume it's directed toward me. If I feel a comment *may* be directed at me, I try to see where my words may have had an unintended interpretation. But that's just me.

To this topic generally, people make decisions for reasons which can't always be known to me. And although I believe some people are closing due to the announcements and not the discussions of them, let's say people are making decisions based on Forum posts. One could just as easily leave a Store OPEN because a Designer said "don't worry; Zazzle will fix this" and experience repurcussions. So, I might agree, "If you are an influencer, like it or not, you have a responsibility to consider what you are influencing other people to do."
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 9:41:15 AM
Here's how I was influenced:

None of it influenced me to close my store or even make any changes other than to my royalty rate, but that was something I'd been thinking about for a long time. The discussions simply reminded me to go ahead and do it.

The discussions also reminded me of something else, which was that I'd been neglecting RB somewhat. So uploaded a number of designs yesterday.

After reading a lot of the discussions with interest and concern, I decided it was all making me tense, so I stopped reading. My peace of mind has been resurrected.
Posted: Sunday, October 27, 2019 10:08:10 AM
vivendulies wrote:
MarBethHolidays wrote:
RoyK_is_a_She wrote:
I'm embarrassed that fellow Designers speak to each like this and name call.



Speak to each other how? The OP just states that the 'discussions' are causing people to panic and tear up and close stores. I would think that everyone would want to make a statement telling people not to do that.

What name calling? The only name I attached to anyone is influencer that is a good thing.


Influencer here is hardly meant as a positive attribute since you associate the influencing with hurting.



Here is the quote of what I said about being an influencer.

Quote:
. If you are an influencer, like it or not, you have a responsibility to consider what you are influencing other people to do.



It is like being a role model, it means that people are listening to you. That is a positive. However, it is also a responsibility.
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