James' announcement in News Forum 11/13/19 10:46 pm 15 pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... Last
Posted: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 11:32:01 PM
Okay, they made changes. We are inclined to take our stuff out of hiding. Just waiting for others reaction and as always we willl weigh the source.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 12:06:03 AM
@zazzle

The core issue is not addressed.

➽ The collaboration feature enters our content into a collaboration.
➽ We are not the initiator.
➽ Since our content is part of the collaboration WE ARE COLLABORATORS
➽ The extend is not specified, so minor changes will suffice

ERGO:

Quote:
26.2. You retain all ownership rights to your Content submitted to the Site. However, by submitting Content to Zazzle, (i) you grant Zazzle a nonexclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicensable and transferable right and license to use, copy, reproduce, prepare derivative works of, modify, publicly display, perform and distribute your Content in connection with the Site and Zazzle's (and any of its successors') business, including without limitation for promoting and redistributing part or all of the Site (and derivative works we may create) in any media now known or hereafter developed; and (ii) you grant other Users the license rights detailed elsewhere herein (e.g., for Collaborative Content, per Section 6)

Emphasis added

We are still rendering our content CC0 by allowing customization and thereby allowing a collaboration initiated by anybody and give the initiator still a A NONEXCLUSIVE, PERPETUAL, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE AND TRANSFERABLE RIGHT AND LICENSE TO USE, COPY, REPRODUCE, PREPARE DERIVATIVE WORKS OF, MODIFY, PUBLICLY DISPLAY, PERFORM AND DISTRIBUTE

PERPETUAL, WORLDWIDE is bi-uniquely as is to COPY, REPRODUCE, PREPARE DERIVATIVE WORKS OF, MODIFY, PUBLICLY DISPLAY, PERFORM AND DISTRIBUTE.
That it isn't allowed on zazzle is hardly comforting considering that the interent offers plenty alternatives.

It is irrelevant that it "only" applies to the collaboration result, as long as we can't refuse to participate and as long as the extend of added assets to the collaboration is not defined.

Let me be blunt. You are acting out the role of a used car salesmen and hide the flaws, downplay future breakdowns and give a "all sales are final" statement.

I know some will jump on this post and tell me Disneys army of lawyers are better than my attorney. It is irrelevant. I believe my attorney when he tells me, that in a dispute with an initiator I'll loose because most judges will side with the initiator under these terms and the functionality given in the collaboration feature. Both are known to us and to both we agree when we continue using zazzle as designers.

Anybody can believe what (s)he wants I'm not your keeper. You run a business so you are in charge and you live with the consequences of your decisions.

My assessment stands: This is a recipe for trouble, this will end in copyright disputes, where people believe James C assertion that initiators do not get granted extended rights to do as (s)he pleases with the access given.

I run into a Nigerian who made it his business copying POD sellers and add minor changes. Not enough to be transformative and sell these copies in packages of 4000 for $35. So far his work resulted in copyright infringements. Victims of this model pay thousands to rights holders.

With zazzles collaboration feature people like this Nigerian has the means to legitimize his business model and do it legally.



[EDIT]
GOOD NEWS
The terms have been amended.
Collaboration is no longer a threat to the exiting works.
Love
As of November 16th, 2019
Smile
[EDIT]Still not bi-uniquely, still a danger to existing works[/EDIT]

[/EDIT]
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 12:15:07 AM

In addition to what Vivendulies just said

Where is the opt out;

for collaboration because we can’t turn off customization on published products.

for secondary content because we don’t want to pay the royalty of another designer when that should be paid by an up charge to the customer.

For chat because we are not available 24 /7 and we are not free customer service reps.


Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 12:17:20 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

Where is the opt out;

for collaboration because we can’t turn off customization on published products.

for secondary content because we don’t want to pay the royalty of another designer when that should be paid by an up charge to the customer.

For chat because we are not available 24 /7 and we are not free customer service reps.




Exactly, that too.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 12:24:05 AM
Read James' statement and it sounds as assumed and expected. Didn't read the changes in the terms yet, but I'm confident they will have closed potential gaps.

Let's now hope, that reign of chaos and confusion makes place to a more enjoying Holiday-ish ambiance. And let's also hope, no one destroyed months or years of hard work with hasty decisions made in the heat of that apocalyptical-like atmosphere.

Thanks, James, just in time.



Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 12:39:20 AM
"JAMES C" wrote:
Clarifications
While Products on Zazzle have historically only been physical in nature, with the introduction of new Digital Content, we are expanding our definition of “Products” to include digital Products as well. This does not mean that your physical Marketplace Products can now be downloaded as digital Products


I know this is a constant confusion here.
I never confused it. I get that point loud and clear.

It is irrelevant because it doesn't take into account, that it only takes a recreation, a copy made offline, to publish any content anywhere and it is the user terms that in the collaboration that makes defending copyrights nearly impossible.

➽ How do you keep a record of collaborations, if you are not even aware when they happen?
➽ How do you proof a negative? Nobody can keep track of every product and make sure that at no point the customize setting was functioning properly.
➽ We can't even be sure that deleted designs are gone from the site, since designer have frequently found deleted items weeks and months after in the order history, long after the license to sell was terminated. Since apparently zazzle can't manage to remove copies from the "saved design" areas of customers.

Reasons why I'm furious and in rage with zazzles changes still apply.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 12:50:25 AM
"Designer Terms" wrote:
You also grant us the license and the right to make modifications to your Content as necessary for viewing/download/sale on a particular Product, as applicable, or for other manufacturing or Site-related purposes.

Emphasis added

Still advertised with
Quote:
"Welcome to Zazzle Create [...]
Take the digital artwork you create, download it and USE IT ANYWHERE FOR ANY PURPOSE [...]

Emphasis added

The download still applies to all content.
YES, I get it is only provided in the create tool.

AGAIN THE PROBLEM IS IN THE TERMS STILL
➽ How do you proof a negative? The problem with refuting this still stands.
➽ How do designer with stockimage material grant you a right to download if they don't have this right?

The issue has not been addressed. Many took your terms by its word and made sure, when using stockimage material the license was sufficient and you make money with it every day.

So WHY?
Why do you not take download out and apply it to the create area only and the issue with the 'download' in the terms is resolved.

[EDIT]
"JAMED C" wrote:

Additionally, we added a sentence to the end of the second paragraph of the Designer License Agreement to further clarify that your Marketplace Products will not be available as downloadable Content.


Why why why on earth then do you still apply download to all content? Where is the problem? Do you want to keep your options open to make it accessible for download some time in the future and simply take out the provision at some point in the future as unspectacular as the collaboration entered the terms early October?

Terms matter. I learned this the hard way with a "nice" boss.
[/EDIT]


Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 1:46:47 AM
I want OPT OUT
I dont want collaboration
And I want to be able TURN OFF CUSTOMISATION ON EXISTING DESIGNS



why I need to come here every day, to read all the threads, to find out the latest news?
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 2:08:51 AM
MarBethHomeDecor wrote:
Okay, they made changes. We are inclined to take our stuff out of hiding. Just waiting for others reaction and as always we willl weigh the source.


To be honest, his post did nothing for me. It left much to be desired.

My stuff will remain hidden. I will remake some, but not all. I will continue publishing new stuff with NO customization allowed.

•I want an Opt Out on these new changes (Chat, Collaboration, Shared Royalty, ETC).
•I want a DEFAULT Opt Out on all new implementations.
•I want the ability to go through all previously published products to turn off customization.


Cats_Of_Karavella wrote:
I want OPT OUT
I dont want collaboration
And I want to be able TURN OFF CUSTOMISATION ON EXISTING DESIGNS


DITTO That!!
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 2:56:53 AM
Same here. I've been following these threads with concern and have decided to step back from Zazzle now and take my artwork to another POD that does not undermine designers. I'm disgusted and disappointed with the shoddy way Zazzle operates and treats its designers, its life-blood and cash cow after all.
I may leave my Wedding Store here at the moment, but delete all else, and I feel sad after all the work I've put into my products here, more sad for those who have spent many more years than me here crafting and selling.
I will not be recommending Zazzle on my blog.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 3:18:58 AM
I want to know if Filters are "elements", what are all the elements and is there a list?


Cats_Of_Karavella wrote:
I want OPT OUT
I dont want collaboration
And I want to be able TURN OFF CUSTOMISATION ON EXISTING DESIGNS



why I need to come here every day, to read all the threads, to find out the latest news?


+1

I want a bulk un-customize option.

Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 3:31:59 AM
I am sorry, but a lot of people have said that 26.2(ii) is the deal breaker. Will it be addressed by 11/22?
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 3:44:16 AM
WittyBetty wrote:
I am sorry, but a lot of people have said that 26.2(ii) is the deal breaker. Will it be addressed by 11/22?


No, it isn't the only deal breaker. Because the way the feature works, the appearance that you are a silent collaborator is inevitable and perception matters in this case.

As a common collaborator you agree to what the initiator can do with it and that hasn't changed. Ergo with minor changes the initiator can collaborate with his granny, friend whatever and has then and thereby a CC0-like license.

Zazzle needs to separate a blank start of a collaboration and a collaboration on exiting products in two paragraphs and clearly and undeniable state that collaborating on an existing product is no different than customizing the product without a collaboration.

Or give us the opportunity to deny any cooperation if we so please.

Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 3:50:50 AM
I agree with you Viven, but I want to emphasize that, with Collaboration or without it, the (ii) part doesn't make any sense and simply shouldn't be there. Editing section 6 is still necessary, I agree, but even if Collaboration is totally removed from the site and the Agreement, the line about us granting other users any rights shouldn't be there. This line causes legal issues and simply prevents designers from posting their original copyrighted artwork (as well as purchased images with no sub-licensing allowed).

The addition "to the extend such right exists" to 6.1.15 doesn't do the trick, if 26.2(ii) is still in the Agreement.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 3:58:00 AM
WittyBetty wrote:
I agree with you Viven, but I want to emphasize that, with Collaboration or without it, the (ii) part doesn't make any sense and simply shouldn't be there. Editing section 6 is still necessary, I agree, but even if Collaboration is totally removed from the site and the Agreement, the line about us granting other users any rights shouldn't be there. This line causes legal issues and simply prevents designers from posting their original copyrighted artwork (as well as purchased images with no sub-licensing allowed).

The addition "to the extend such right exists" to 6.1.15 doesn't do the trick, if 26.2(ii) is still in the Agreement.

AGREE wholeheartedly.

Quote:
(ii) you grant other Users the license rights detailed elsewhere herein (e.g., for Collaborative Content, per Section 6)


Also implies there are other site-purposes to worry about not just the create tool and the collaboration because it is unconditionally.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 4:28:48 AM
vivendulies wrote:

No, it isn't the only deal breaker. Because the way the feature works, the appearance that you are a silent collaborator is inevitable and perception matters in this case.


At least if I understand my attorney correct there seems to be no such thing as a silent collaborator. Unfortunately he didn't give me an all clear either. Zazzle creates a very murky situation that has us hanging and it becomes a gamble from court to court. This I find still unacceptable.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 4:44:44 AM
@ James C.

1. Please consider removing 26.2 (ii) from the Agreement. I'll be more clear: please remove it and send it to hell where it belongs.

2. As the changes in the Agreement are that big, they shouldn't apply to products posted under the old contract. Please make sure the new Agreemet is not retroactive.

3. Why is Customization button responsible for everything? If you launch so many options available from Design Tool (which a customer can enter only by clicking Customize Further), why don't you launch separate radio buttons for us to choose what options we allow and what we don't? Initially, Customize it button was only to give customers the ability to make changes to our designs that personalization templates do not cover, and we were nice enough to leave this door open for them.

Now, Customization is responsible for:

- Collaboration (possible copyright / redistribution issues)
- Secondary content (royalty split)
- Disclosing designer's private stores (privacy issues)
- Chat (unprofessional in many aspects)

(did I forget something?)

I hope you understand the primary concept of ethics that says that people shouldn't be penalized for being nice, and if they are, it's a penalizing party who is unethical. So I assume we shouldn't be open to that many issues because we once wanted to be nice to customers and let them change our design to their liking (which was the only option provided by Design Tool back then). So I repeat my question:

Why does Customization cause that many troubles?

This question is very much related to why the changes are retroactive and is essentially an ask for opt outs SEPARATE for each feature.

Hoping to hear from you before 11/22. Thank you.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 4:54:52 AM
Hi, for me the big issue is the word 'Perpetual'. Please can you address this.

Perpetual means forever - even after I left Zazzle or took my work off Zazzle "perpetual" means that you can sell Zazzle to someone else and then they own my work even after I left Zazzle or removed my design from Zazzle prior to the sale. Collaborators "own" my work even after I left Zazzle or took my work off Zazzle? Add infinitum.

An explanation will not do, it will not stand up in court in my favour on my original work if it was used... there is no way to keep track of sub licences on a "Perpetual licence", I feel that the Terms need to change and to have Perpetual removed.

Is there any chance you can address this - please?
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 4:57:40 AM
Quote:
2. As the changes in the Agreement are that big, they shouldn't apply to products posted under the old contract. Please make sure the new Agreement is not retroactive.


Love it - what a good idea - then we can leave our work up and make decisions on new works as we go forward!

Good point Love
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 5:11:35 AM
Moose Disco wrote:
Quote:
2. As the changes in the Agreement are that big, they shouldn't apply to products posted under the old contract. Please make sure the new Agreement is not retroactive.


Love it - what a good idea - then we can leave our work up and make decisions on new works as we go forward!

Good point Love


It's not me, it's Connie who brought it up, thanks to her Roses
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 5:11:41 AM
As these follow up questions gain traction, may I ask for anyone posting to please be clear, concise and not repeat an already posted question. This can easily turn into previous threads where it's impossible to consolidate and we want to be able to note and address what we can. TIA Roses
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 5:58:36 AM
James C said
Quote:
I cannot address all of the questions that have been brought up across the forums in this initial post, but I wanted to give you some feedback on the main issues raised.


okay, but can you address them in an additional post and do it soon!

If there are questions you cannot answer then can we hear from someone who can answer them.

The main issues are still not addressed.

Edit: Countdown... eight (8) days until the 22nd of November.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:02:32 AM
MarBethHomeDecor wrote:
Okay, they made changes. We are inclined to take our stuff out of hiding. Just waiting for others reaction and as always we willl weigh the source.

Speak for yourself. I'm not one to take my stuff out of hiding. I don't want neither my original designs nor my designs with purchased graphics to be available for collaboration.

To James C.:
This is NOT about what can happen or not on Zazzle.

1. There is no opt-out for prior published work.
2. Do not mix up "copyright" with "license" - these terms have legally different definitions and are not interchangeable. The way they're used now is confusing in the agreement. Owning the copyright is not the same as owning the license in perpetuity to do whatever the licensee wants to do.
3. It is an illegal use of purchased graphics by the original designer for further collaborated works (that they don't even know about!!!) for the collaborator initiator to now have the license to the collaboration and be free to sell elsewhere, however they manage to obtain the finished collaborated art.

vivenduiles wrote:
Because the way the feature works, the appearance that you are a silent collaborator is inevitable and perception matters in this case.

4. Yes, a silent collaborator is still a collaborator. Designers will have a tough one proving differently in court. And original artists will lose the license rights to their own artwork. Forget about copyright, it doesn't apply here - license is the operative word that matters.


Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:06:32 AM
All this legalese mumbo jumbo is making my head hurt! I have read postings in the Forum regarding the change to take place beginning November 22 as well as the Zazzle agreement (not a lawyer so it gets confusing to me) . until I am blue in the face. Obviously many of you have much more knowledge and experience with these terms and issues. I do not know what to do but am leaning toward leaving the Zazzle family. Though as I said, I am confused about it all and do not understand all the legalese, my gut reaction to what I THINK I read leaves me very uncomfortable with the proposed terms. I do not want my copyright/work to be up for grabs to anyone and certainly not EVERYONE to use freely. Should I decide in the next day or two that leaving is the best option, what needs to be done to make a "clean" break? Is deleting all my images and all my designs all that is necessary to prevent others from access to my work? Would hiding all my designs do the trick? I guess I am unsure as to the steps one takes when closing a store in a way to prevent further use of one's images. And is this what you might recommend (you people more experienced than I in this legal/copyright issues?). Thank you for your help.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:10:03 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

In addition to what Vivendulies just said

Where is the opt out;

for collaboration because we can’t turn off customization on published products.

for secondary content because we don’t want to pay the royalty of another designer when that should be paid by an up charge to the customer.

For chat because we are not available 24 /7 and we are not free customer service reps.





These are all my thoughts right now.

I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I am a big girl that understands big words, and even though we were offered some sort of "explanation", this whole thing leaves me uneasy.

The key here is opt out. Collaboration might sound like fun family time on Z's end, but I personally just want to continue as I have been, creating designs, applying them to products, and offering them for sale. That's all. I don't need bells and whistles and all the headache of worrying if my original designs will be run through the shredder or if my purchased/licensed designs will break some sort of law or agreement. Not to mention the theft this opens us up to (as if we're not already battling image theft).

We need an opt out.

Did I say that loudly enough?

WE NEED AN OPT OUT. For all of these new toys.

This should be the very next thing you address, and it should be the very next thing you implement. I know you've seen more and more people saying this, over and over and over. It permeates the boards. Give us an opt out.

It's November 14. November 22 will be upon us very quickly. This needs be addressed. NOW.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:13:03 AM
whatawonderfulworld wrote:
Should I decide in the next day or two that leaving is the best option, what needs to be done to make a "clean" break? .


If Zazzle can answer no other questions then this one becomes the most important one of all.

Can you answer this question please James C or anyone at Zazzle?

Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:25:02 AM
whatawonderfulworld wrote:
All this legalese mumbo jumbo is making my head hurt! I have read postings in the Forum regarding the change to take place beginning November 22 as well as the Zazzle agreement (not a lawyer so it gets confusing to me) . until I am blue in the face. Obviously many of you have much more knowledge and experience with these terms and issues. I do not know what to do but am leaning toward leaving the Zazzle family. Though as I said, I am confused about it all and do not understand all the legalese, my gut reaction to what I THINK I read leaves me very uncomfortable with the proposed terms. I do not want my copyright/work to be up for grabs to anyone and certainly not EVERYONE to use freely. Should I decide in the next day or two that leaving is the best option, what needs to be done to make a "clean" break? Is deleting all my images and all my designs all that is necessary to prevent others from access to my work? Would hiding all my designs do the trick? I guess I am unsure as to the steps one takes when closing a store in a way to prevent further use of one's images. And is this what you might recommend (you people more experienced than I in this legal/copyright issues? Thank you for your help.

Hide them. People can't cooperate on stuff they can't see. If things turn out well for you, you can then simply unhide them again. If you delete them, it would be an irreversible act, and you may (will, if you make earnings) regret it, when the whole thing settles down, what I'm sure it will.

I see this all less nightmarish, but I'm probably in the minority here. In regard to hiding instead of deleting, though, most will agree with me, included my most affectionate opponents.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:31:04 AM
■ ■ ■


I gave my plus one to customize opt out retroactive, but honestly I still do't like the solution.

Templates break or look awkward when the length of text changes considerably.
SVG - you know how I love the possibilities that arise of using SVG - is inaccessible to customers and they can't change the color to match a theme or interior design. The same goes for PNG and background colors. Not a small number of products actively incorporate the background color in their design.

Retroactive customize opt out is a short term fix it is not a solution.

We need two separate areas, where maker Kits and collaboration can thrive and an area where the license "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED" is held high.

Will zazzle acknowledge the need and honor the designer and show the respect they deserve?

Can we have more LICENSE AWARENESS, please?
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:41:22 AM
PetsDreamlands wrote:

I see this all less nightmarish, but I'm probably in the minority here. In regard to hiding instead of deleting, though, most will agree with me, included my most affectionate opponents.


YES. But at some point you need to cut the cord, because zazzle is raging havoc with their designers licenses. At some point you need to terminate the license and that happens only by deleting.

Don't forget, that there is an unknown number of copies on customer accounts in the "saved designs"-areas, so not deleting keeps the license alive and puts you at risk. Since these copies can be entered into a collaboration still.

It is because of this risk, that my patience has a deadline and zazzle is reaching this deadline fast.

@Zazzle this is feedback, as is the apology you moved. It was also a message for you as to the harm the hazard caused to our ability to defend our copyright by extending the ALL RIGHTS RESERVED LICENSE to a close to CC0 LICENSE to users.

Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 7:00:16 AM
" 6.1.5.2. Collaborative Content based on existing Public Products may not be published on the Site. "

[Emphasis added.] This is a HUGE loophole: EXISTING Public Products. You need to remove the word "existing". What happens if / when the original product[s] is hidden & / or removed from the MP / site? Can they upload / sell it then, when the original[s] no longer 'exist' as a "Public" Product [on Z]? Collaboration Initiators should NOT be able to [recreate it &] SELL it -- EVER -- if they have used other designers' assets! Spelling auto-correct wanted to make Initiator into Imitator -- so appropriate to my point!
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