Copyright vulnerability in the new terms 11 pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... Last
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 6:53:11 PM
"James C in News" wrote:
I do have a few points I would like to clear up now though.
1) Your marketplace designs are not available for digital download.

Source News 10/26/19

This is not the issue. Zazzle leaves us vulnerable by including downloads to all content with unspecified "site-related purposes".

It is a vulnerability that goes along with a very reckless advertisement on the create tool.

"Welcome to Zazzle Create [...]
Take the digital artwork you create, download it and USE IT ANYWHERE FOR ANY PURPOSE [...]

···

There is contract law and there is assertion by employees.

And while I have no doubt, that this assertion in the news section of this forum by James C quoted above is sincere, it doesn't change the fact that the designer terms by November 22nd 2019 will include the create tool.

At the very least zazzle is sending a mixed message here. But it is worse because relevant are the terms not the assertion of a zazzle employee moderating the forum.

Again I trust your assertions are sincere and are in fact zazzle policy for the time being.

But zazzle offers a download of digital content with the size of 6000x6000px in the create tool with an unlimited license accompanying this download. So zazzle has demonstrated that they can and have no problem with offering digital content by designer with the equivalent of a CC0 license.

NOW!
Zazzle expects us to accept new terms where we are left vulnerable to loose control over our own art work. We no longer can rely on a decade of business practice, because zazzle has a different business practice right there on the site, to protect us from this vulnerability.

Quote:
Licenses.

By uploading Content to the Site and/or creating Content with Zazzle's design tools, you grant the following licenses to Zazzle: the nonexclusive, worldwide, transferable, sublicensable right to use, reproduce, publicly display, sell, and distribute the Content (a) in or on Products and (b) in advertising, marketing, samples, and promotional materials for the purpose of promoting the Site, your Content and Products. Without limitation, this promotion, marketing, or advertising may consist of: (i) display of your Content and/or Products; (ii) promotional "streams" of audio/video/photographic content, including but not limited to your Content, on the Website, (iii) Products or Content placement in magazines, television shows, movies, and other media; and (iv) the distribution of Content and Products available on the Site through third party product feeds and websites. You also grant us the license and the right to make modifications to your Content as necessary for viewing/download/sale on a particular Product or for other manufacturing or Site-related purposes. If you select the "customizable" option, you also agree that Zazzle and ("Users") may make changes to the Content for the purposes of creating and ordering Products: Such changes may include the addition of Content contributed by the User ("User Content") or Content “Posted for Use” by other Designers and offered in Zazzle’s Design Tool(s) ("Secondary Content"). Composite designs and associated metadata that: (i) are published by Designers (i.e., not contributed by Zazzle) using our “Post for Download” or “Post for Sale” workflows, and (ii) associated with a Product type (e.g., t-shirt, Facebook® banner, tote bag, etc.), are "Primary Content."

You retain all copyright and other intellectual property rights in your Content. You may delete or hide your Primary Content and certain types of Secondary Content from the Site at any time, but due to caching and other technical issues, it may take a number of days for it to be completely removed from the Site. Upon the removal of Content, the licenses above will terminate, except that Zazzle may continue to use or access your Content (i) to fulfill any orders placed prior to termination, (ii) in marketing and promotional materials if such materials were created prior to removal of the Content, and (iii) to defend against or respond to infringement claims.

Source Designer Terms 11/22/19

Quote:
You also grant us the license and the right to make modifications to your Content as necessary for viewing/download/sale on a particular Product or for other manufacturing or Site-related purposes.

Refers to all content that we submit to zazzle and site related purposes includes the create tool from a contractual point of view.

I had this checked by my attorney for international copyright law. The vulnerability is real and any assertion will not change this. If this stands as is by November 22nd 2019 any content that remains on zazzle will fall under the new terms and will be vulnerable.

I don't want to leave zazzle. I love their design tool and the designs I can make here. Zazzle is a great site. But why, why, why will you make your designer needlessly so vulnerable?

Because zazzle content provider aka designer will have to agree to those terms, they also will have to grant rights which they most likely do not have, if they make use of stockimage material with a POD-license, because all exclude the distribution via download.
Contract law is contract law. You can't grant rights, which you do not have. To do so is fraud.

Will zazzle really risk that their designer commit fraud out of ignorance?
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 8:13:02 PM

The problem as I see it is that no matter what James or any other Zazzle spokesperson says, once you log in on November 23rd you have agreed to what is written in the legal contract. Maybe Zazzle will not change their standard practices, but if they do there is no recourse after that.

Please Zazzle, consider changing this for all of our sakes. I don't want to leave either so please don't force me to.
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 9:08:55 PM
thank you zazzle

but why do we have to agree to allowing our marketplace content to be downloaded if there are no plans to ever allow that?

Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 10:28:00 PM
So.. Basically if they don't change new policy we can not work here anymore. Great Crying
Posted: Friday, October 25, 2019 10:48:40 PM
Sanja Vrekic wrote:
So.. Basically if they don't change new policy we can not work here anymore. Great Crying


This is not what I say here. It is still your decision. You will have to clear the download part with any stockimage company and get their ok before you can continue to use those stockimages to be on the safe side. My guess is, they will refuse.

You can still use your original artwork but you agree to the risks involved by agreeing to those new terms.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 12:36:05 AM
Obviously, Zazzle has heard you.

So, it seems your options are to wait and see if Zazzle is listening and changes the wording that concerns some to many.

Or show them what it will truly be like if they don't. My sister and I don't have any licensed images. We do have some images that we would protect by moving them elsewhere if Zazzle did what is being said that they could do. I haven't been able to gauge if everybody agrees with what is being said about the risk to images. I know that many of you talk among yourselves in higher forums and off Zazzle.

So if you truly think that the new TOS are forcing out licensed images in the MP or unacceptably putting your rights at risk, talk to each other and see if you get enough people on the same page. Then, use this weekend to hide those designs that you will pull by 11/22. It takes a few days for that to occur in the MP. If it works, then there you will only be making a temporary action, rather than waiting and taking a permanent action on the 22nd.


I am only trying to prevent people from irreversibly tearing down stores.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 1:02:55 AM
MarBethHomeDecor wrote:
Obviously, Zazzle has heard you.

So, it seems your options are to wait and see if Zazzle is listening and changes the wording that concerns some to many.

Or show them what it will truly be like if they don't. Mysister and I don't have any licensed images. We do have some images that we would protect by moving them elsewhere if Zazzle did what is being said that they could do. I haven't been able to gauge if everybody agrees with what is being said about the risk to images. I know that many of you talk among yourselves in higher forums and off Zazzle.

So if you truly think that the new TOS are forcing out licensed images in the MP or unacceptably putting your rights at risk, talk to each other and see if you get enough people on the same page. Them use this weekend to hide those designs that you will pull by 11/22. It takes a few days for that to occur in the MP. If it works, then there you will only be making a temporary action, rather than waiting and taking a permanent action on the 22nd.



There is a difference between hearing and understanding and James C response was clearly not getting the point, despite the fact that I repeatedly pointed out, that I get that this is not in the plans as of yet and still he emphasis a point, he had already made and sadly was besides the point. Hence my decision to give it its own space in the feedback forum again pointing out that I have heard and understand but the issue itself was not addressed.

It is of no help that James C assures that there are no plans to release marketplace content for download. It doesn't change that the contract says they can and that decades of business practice no longer matters either because the practice has recently changed.

Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 1:39:13 AM
Thank you @vivendulies for highlighting the more-than-concerning changes to come.

I also don't think that Zazzle is truly listening or considering the consequences. I am very much going to highlight my perspective on the situation and currently things are not passing the sniff test!

I have taken down my store and in reality nothing done in the digital world is irreversible, there are always traces of backups on servers somewhere. Regardless, all my designs have been deleted and I am going to research other alternative PODs.

I feel an immense sense of freedom with that. This is after all my hobby and it has been taking far to much of my peace for the last few months.

If people already feel the need to hire lawyers in order to read the terms and conditions to ensure that their rights aren't being violated, it kind of sets off some serious red lights in my mind. I have been the victim of outright abuse and attempts to steal my PhD work during my time in Academia - so I for one would not allow myself to be exploited like that ever again.

I have neither the patience nor the understanding for this situation that Zazzle has created and I feel far better leaving this place. I am not interested in fighting it or bending over backwards to adjust to it. This is very much a personal choice.

If Zazzle wants to become a Stock Image/POD site that is there prerogative and so is mine for wanting to go along with it or not.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 1:44:33 AM
Vivendulies - I agree with the points you are making here. I am writing this post to express my support for your concerns.

It seems to me to be probable that the terms of the Licence Agreement have been widely drawn so that they will cover potential changes Zazzle may wish to make to their business and the operation of the site in the future. Even if such changes are not made for another five years, say, it will undoubtedly be helpful to Zazzle to be able to point to the Agreement and say 'of course this applies to existing designs - the rights to do XYZ were given to us five years ago.'
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 1:52:27 AM
I wonder (but seriously doubt) if these people fall under the same new Terms of Service:
https://www.zazzle.com/featured/brand+partners

I don't think the brand partner's lawyers would let them continue on Zazzle.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 5:07:09 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

The problem as I see it is that no matter what James or any other Zazzle spokesperson says, once you log in on November 23rd you have agreed to what is written in the legal contract. Maybe Zazzle will not change their standard practices, but if they do there is no recourse after that.

Please Zazzle, consider changing this for all of our sakes. I don't want to leave either so please don't force me to.


If they don't change the wording in the TOC before 22 November and people decide to leave, what actions will be enough?

1. Will just removing products be enough to protect our copyrights?
2. Will we have to make sure all images are deleted too?
3. Or, will only account deletion be enough to be sure?
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 5:53:38 AM
NikolaTigerDesigns wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

The problem as I see it is that no matter what James or any other Zazzle spokesperson says, once you log in on November 23rd you have agreed to what is written in the legal contract. Maybe Zazzle will not change their standard practices, but if they do there is no recourse after that.

Please Zazzle, consider changing this for all of our sakes. I don't want to leave either so please don't force me to.


If they don't change the wording in the TOC before 22 November and people decide to leave, what actions will be enough?

1. Will just removing products be enough to protect our copyrights?
2. Will we have to make sure all images are deleted too?
3. Or, will only account deletion be enough to be sure?



I would take all of those drastic actions if and only if MP content became downloadable. Taking those actions simply because the murky wording means it might theoretically happen in the future would be screwing yourself if it never actually does.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:02:37 AM
Skip wrote:
I wonder (but seriously doubt) if these people fall under the same new Terms of Service:
https://www.zazzle.com/featured/brand+partners

I don't think the brand partner's lawyers would let them continue on Zazzle.

Actually, yes, I believe they would. They may well have additional agreements, but the general terms of uploading art and publishing Products surely must apply to all in the same Marketplace. Makers too.

I wonder if they have to split their Royalties earned when someone adds an element. The money part is what is probably under different terms. Zazzle may well eat the royalty share.

I would like to hear what Disney's team of lawyers has to say about the new terms.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:19:48 AM
Susannah Keegan wrote:
I would take all of those drastic actions if and only if MP content became downloadable. Taking those actions simply because the murky wording means it might theoretically happen in the future would be screwing yourself if it never actually does.

The murky wording, as currently written, means that whether Zazzle actively makes our art downloadable or not, Zazzle has a RIGHT to download it and make it downloadable.

Legally speaking, Zazzle's intent doesn't matter. Legally speaking, what Zazzle has WRITTEN in the terms does. Rights are granted in legal documents. Even if the rights aren't acted upon, they exist.

If we agree to the terms on November 22 and on November 23 Zazzle announces all designs are downloadable, that would be their right. We would have no defense exxept to say James C. posted in the Forum.

Everyone has to make their own decision and trust, of course, but they need to do it with their eyes wide open. Zazzle's legal team is paid to protect them; not to protect us. The lead attorney at a company where I used to work was the king of murky wording. That company never lost a legal challenge. Not in 10+ years I worked there.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:24:35 AM
For what it's worth, here's a response I gave in a Facebook group to the observation that some have closed their stores (making pins of their products no longer get to where they're supposed to):

Quote:
It's sad to see people leaving. The phrase "act in haste - repent at leisure" springs to mind.
I think there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding on the forums about the new terms and features. I don't think it's nearly as bad as the general vibe in the feedback would suggest.
Like with all changes to something that's close to people's hearts, many are resistant and fear the worst, when the reality turns out not to be like they thought at first.
My reaction is to 'wait and see', as only time will actually reveal what the true nature of these changes is.
And what's more, if there's truly unintended consequences, I'm sure Z will correct them.
That's what happened to the Promoter Program and has happened to other changes they made in the past.


So I'd say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating - and the pudding has only just been put in the oven!
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:26:16 AM
RoyK_is_a_She wrote:
Skip wrote:
I wonder (but seriously doubt) if these people fall under the same new Terms of Service:
https://www.zazzle.com/featured/brand+partners

I don't think the brand partner's lawyers would let them continue on Zazzle.

Actually, yes, I believe they would. They may well have additional agreements, but the general terms of uploading art and publishing Products surely must apply to all in the same Marketplace. Makers too.

I wonder if they have to split their Royalties earned when someone adds an element. The money part is what is probably under different terms. Zazzle may well eat the royalty share.

I would like to hear what Disney's team of lawyers has to say about the new terms.


Now that is an interesting idea for anyone accepted to create. Pick the popular Disney products, design for them, and promote them togther. Should add up to Create royalty.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:30:14 AM
I know that some people here watch "Judge Judy". Viven and RoyK make an extremely important and very valid point: It's what's on the piece of paper, i.e., the written document, that defines the contract not the reassurances of a Zazzle employee however well-intentioned. Visualize JJ holding up a copies of the Designer Agreement and the ToS and tracing the papers' edges with her finger and saying: "This and this alone constitutes the contract."
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:40:44 AM
People need to start looking to see what is actually happening with their products and designs.

This product was a recent re-publish as I discovered that at some point Zazzle had messed it up. Please PAY ATTENTION to the left side where I have LOCKED the images.

https://ibb.co/MRDkS5m

Now look at the published product front page. NO Customize but it does say Personalize and look at what the customer is given as to what can be personalized. MY IMAGE and they are given an open invitation to change it

https://ibb.co/yqMqPGs
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 6:52:41 AM
NikolaTigerDesigns wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

The problem as I see it is that no matter what James or any other Zazzle spokesperson says, once you log in on November 23rd you have agreed to what is written in the legal contract. Maybe Zazzle will not change their standard practices, but if they do there is no recourse after that.

Please Zazzle, consider changing this for all of our sakes. I don't want to leave either so please don't force me to.


If they don't change the wording in the TOC before 22 November and people decide to leave, what actions will be enough?

1. Will just removing products be enough to protect our copyrights?
2. Will we have to make sure all images are deleted too?
3. Or, will only account deletion be enough to be sure?


First let me make this clear... I am not trying to sway anyone's decision. That is your decision to make. So let me put it this way, if I leave I will first delete all designed products and saved designs and images. Then delete my account.

Another less permanent option would be to hide everything until you can determine what you want to do. Be aware this will probably affect your zRank if/when you do come back.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 7:04:20 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:


Another less permanent option would be to hide everything until you can determine what you want to do. Be aware this will probably affect your zRank if/when you do come back.


Honestly, at this point, who even cares about zRank anymore? And does it really even matter? I never cared for it and this won't change that.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 7:22:38 AM
Saints_Aplenty wrote:
I know that some people here watch "Judge Judy". Viven and RoyK make an extremely important and very valid point: It's what's on the piece of paper, i.e., the written document, that defines the contract not the reassurances of a Zazzle employee however well-intentioned. Visualize JJ holding up a copies of the Designer Agreement and the ToS and tracing the papers' edges with her finger and saying: "This and this alone constitutes the contract."

Thank you, for pointing that out, @Saints!

Related, here are the provisions in the terms Judge Judy would reference.

Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 7:38:53 AM
Gina ©gleem wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:


Another less permanent option would be to hide everything until you can determine what you want to do. Be aware this will probably affect your zRank if/when you do come back.


Honestly, at this point, who even cares about zRank anymore? And does it really even matter? I never cared for it and this won't change that.


I do agree with you on that point Gina. I just wanted to make sure it was clear to anyone who might still care.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 7:45:57 AM
eclecticpastime wrote:
People need to start looking to see what is actually happening with their products and designs.

This product was a recent re-publish as I discovered that at some point Zazzle had messed it up. Please PAY ATTENTION to the left side where I have LOCKED the images.

https://ibb.co/MRDkS5m

Now look at the published product front page. NO Customize but it does say Personalize and look at what the customer is given as to what can be personalized. MY IMAGE and they are given an open invitation to change it

https://ibb.co/yqMqPGs

Besides locking the image, did you turn off the customize option?
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 8:00:25 AM
There are other ramifications. Though I've used Pixabay (and contributed), bought from Renderosity, and another place now defunct though I see a lot of them on Renderosity now.

But a lot of what I use, have used, are my pets, friends dogs, cats, horses and they have granted ME their use. ANY, even extremely unlikely, possibility of them popping up elsewhere with another use is unacceptable. All memes are not sweet, all alterations are not nice. As a childless pet owner I know I'd be rabid at any other use of my babies. I know I was furious to find one kitty from Dreamstime on here, no extended license purchased. (yes I had it removed)

I know an opt out is no guarantee but without one I take my babies, my altered images from elsewhere and leave.

d
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 8:09:51 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
NikolaTigerDesigns wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

The problem as I see it is that no matter what James or any other Zazzle spokesperson says, once you log in on November 23rd you have agreed to what is written in the legal contract. Maybe Zazzle will not change their standard practices, but if they do there is no recourse after that.

Please Zazzle, consider changing this for all of our sakes. I don't want to leave either so please don't force me to.


If they don't change the wording in the TOC before 22 November and people decide to leave, what actions will be enough?

1. Will just removing products be enough to protect our copyrights?
2. Will we have to make sure all images are deleted too?
3. Or, will only account deletion be enough to be sure?


First let me make this clear... I am not trying to sway anyone's decision. That is your decision to make. So let me put it this way, if I leave I will first delete all designed products and saved designs and images. Then delete my account.

Another less permanent option would be to hide everything until you can determine what you want to do. Be aware this will probably affect your zRank if/when you do come back.


Sorry, I didn't mean to put the onus on you, just generally asking.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 8:36:51 AM
NikolaTigerDesigns wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
NikolaTigerDesigns wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

The problem as I see it is that no matter what James or any other Zazzle spokesperson says, once you log in on November 23rd you have agreed to what is written in the legal contract. Maybe Zazzle will not change their standard practices, but if they do there is no recourse after that.

Please Zazzle, consider changing this for all of our sakes. I don't want to leave either so please don't force me to.


If they don't change the wording in the TOC before 22 November and people decide to leave, what actions will be enough?

1. Will just removing products be enough to protect our copyrights?
2. Will we have to make sure all images are deleted too?
3. Or, will only account deletion be enough to be sure?


First let me make this clear... I am not trying to sway anyone's decision. That is your decision to make. So let me put it this way, if I leave I will first delete all designed products and saved designs and images. Then delete my account.

Another less permanent option would be to hide everything until you can determine what you want to do. Be aware this will probably affect your zRank if/when you do come back.


Sorry, I didn't mean to put the onus on you, just generally asking.


Not at all, I never took it that way. Love
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 9:07:58 AM
HightonRidley wrote:
For what it's worth, here's a response I gave in a Facebook group to the observation that some have closed their stores (making pins of their products no longer get to where they're supposed to):

Quote:
It's sad to see people leaving. The phrase "act in haste - repent at leisure" springs to mind.
I think there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding on the forums about the new terms and features. I don't think it's nearly as bad as the general vibe in the feedback would suggest.
Like with all changes to something that's close to people's hearts, many are resistant and fear the worst, when the reality turns out not to be like they thought at first.
My reaction is to 'wait and see', as only time will actually reveal what the true nature of these changes is.
And what's more, if there's truly unintended consequences, I'm sure Z will correct them.
That's what happened to the Promoter Program and has happened to other changes they made in the past.


So I'd say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating - and the pudding has only just been put in the oven!

Wise words.

I can only suggest people who are scared or annoyed, whatever, NOT to definitely delete their account. Rage quitting is never the solution and you may regret it sooner or later. Put things on ice instead and wait to see how the situation evolves. There is always time to shut down the whole thing.

I'm long enough in the software and graphic business to know, how to interpret the terms. And to be honest, they sound pretty standard to me. Some passages need some fine-tuning, though, to avoid unnecessary disputes (e.g. copyright issues, downloads of marketplace content etc) and possible negative impacts on other agreements designers may have with third parties, such as stock photo licenses. But overall, I didn't see anything that really scares me off.

This is my personal opinion. I'm aware, not all will agree with me, and I'm also aware, I may be wrong. But I think we all shall cool down a little bit and wait for Zazzle's official response to our concerns now.

p.s. Roy, Viv, I read your replies but didn't have the brain nor the time to answer. Know, I'm with you, even if I have a different opinion on some aspects. And yes, I see your concerns, don't think I'm not aware of. Btw, Roy, glad to read you again, missed your wisdom ;-)
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 9:58:25 AM
Will the new TOS invalidate any DMCA Takedown requests?
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 10:19:47 AM
PetsDreamlands wrote:

[...]
I can only suggest people who are scared or annoyed, whatever, NOT to definitely delete their account. Rage quitting is never the solution and you may regret it sooner or later. Put things on ice instead and wait to see how the situation evolves. There is always time to shut down the whole thing.
[...]

p.s. Roy, Viv, I read your replies but didn't have the brain nor the time to answer. Know, I'm with you, even if I have a different opinion on some aspects. And yes, I see your concerns, don't think I'm not aware of. Btw, Roy, glad to read you again, missed your wisdom ;-)


It has nothing to do with being scared or annoyed. You do get the part, where I collected advice from an expert with court experience, not just my friends divorce lawyer but from a specialized attorney for international copyright law.

As for hiding. Yes if many hide their products it would set a signal but it does not eliminate the risk involved with those terms. If you can live with this risk good for you. If you never defended your copyrights and the fact that they are all over the place pirated - so what's the diff? - you couldn't care one way or the other, that, too, is an absolute fine position, that is if the artwork is yours to begin with.

If you use 3rd party material with a license, chances are come 23rd you are in violation with said license. And it won't be your decision to leave them here unless you want to risk getting in trouble with the third party licensee and be in breach of contract with zazzle.
Posted: Saturday, October 26, 2019 10:26:20 AM
Quote:
Will the new TOS invalidate any DMCA Takedown requests?


I was wondering this too...

"You also grant us the license and the right to make modifications to your Content as necessary for viewing/download/sale on a particular Product or for other manufacturing or Site-related purposes."

we are granting them the right to modify our designs for download for other manufacturing purposes and site related purposes

but I don't think that also applies to users, they don't also have a license to do that so we can still send valid DMCAs

but if our designs are added to the new create tool then users can do whatever they want and DMCAs would be invalid

also I can't really say for sure, this is a good question for a lawyer...
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