Collaboration Beta Feedback
Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:35:47 PM
Hi Zazzle team,

the cat is out of the bag
https://www.stumcgibbon.com/projects/zazzle.html?fbclid=IwAR2UFWHVV-t1Ip5-PGkcyuUzOtm5ouw0u506jQhRUbR-tCt3ijqNjywXrno
[EDIT]
Sense of Ownership

Compared to Design Templates, user of
Maker Kits reported a greater sense of
ownership about their final designs. Although
the assets had been created and
pre-assembled by another designer, users
nevertheless felt that the designs they created
were their own.

"I'm proud of what we made together. This is the
most beautiful thing I have ever designed."

Source: https://www.stumcgibbon.com/documents/MakerKits_DesignGuideline.pdf
[/EDIT]

In this light the collaboration looks different. In principal I'm excited and think it can be a lot of fun. The invitation is easy enough to comprehend and friends working together makes a lot of sense not just from your point of view.

The legal downside for works basically published (c) all rights reserved for the most part with the allowances for customization, I don't need to repeat here. I made my position clear on page 5, 6 and 7 of the thread copyright vulnerabilities in the new terms

What the heck:
■ The loss of rights should require the expressed consent case by case of the original artist. At the very least ... very very very least it requires a notification since it changes the control over the copyrights to the extreme.

■ Opting out by only disallowing customization is harmful to both the designer and the customer. A not small portion of customer will not ask the expert as the study claims and just not opt for the purchase if a problem occurse with template areas.

■ Not all collaborative customization requires the extensive change in the license as proposed in the new agreement.

■ Replacing a logo or a family photo does not change the work transformatively and inviting a friend to help with the tool is a splendid idea. So give a three step customization.


  1. No invite button if stockimages are used and a collaboration is not in those terms allowed.
  2. Collaboration with license awareness were the customer agrees to restrictions in the license like (c) all rights reserved
  3. happy hour for the collaborators CC0 all around, carefree collaboration clearly marked by a sticker and easily recognized


Postpone your current plans a month or two and take us old designer with you. We are an asset not a burden to drag you down.

No-one wants to be a drag and a downer.

The way you went about it with lies of omission and to say it with Trump 'foistering' the collab prematurely were loser moves. (Sorry, for being so blunt)

Back to #positiveVibes

We Love love your zazzle tool, we love to tell others how cool it is and what we can make with it. We donate time to help others. The "create products" subforum is a testament to that. We form friendships here and care for each other.

So let us in in your new strategy without selling us out, endangering the control to our copyrights.

Thank you.

Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:51:01 PM
Sorry, but I might not ever trust you again Zazzle

I don't like to let the same dog bite me twice.

Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:23:33 PM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

I don't like to let the same dog bite me twice.


Noted. I can put myself in their shoes and don't look at it so harshly yet.
_____



For those who haven't tested the collaboration with several account for themselves, these are the screenshots from my test:


I'm the account with the copyright

See icon in the lower left corner.

Silke is the invitor and initiator of the collaboration

Silke initiated the collaboration. The window was closed and reopened in the saved folder of Silke and my icon is gone.

This is Silkester, she is the invitee

As you can see, she has no clue from the start who the original author of this content is. Don't get mixed up with the icon it is not from my vivendulies account on zazzle but from my google account.

I could login with any email address and initiate a collaboration with anybody. This is basically anonymous A initiating a collaboration with anonymous B on any and all content.

Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 12:23:12 AM
How it comes I'm not surprised it's a group of Chinese?
Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 12:25:48 AM
BTW

If the rights holder and designer encounters an issue after creating the product with possible IP violations and hides the product temporarily to make sure there isn't an issue or the designer wants to get permission in order to place it back on the MP again or delete it later if the designer is denied permission. The initiator of a collaboration from a saved design is a problem. The initiator and collaborators are unaware that the product has been removed from the marketplace and there is the possibility to major legal issues.

A hidden marketplace item need to be removed from any saved design area (hidden together with the hidden original) and only reappear if the original reappears or at least locked with a notification that the product is temporarily out and not available.
Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 1:38:27 AM
PetsDreamlands wrote:
How it comes I'm not surprised it's a group of Chinese?

No, they're not. Don't get fooled by Asian looking names. The United States of America is a land of people with origins from around the globe. But they are full bred Americans.

When you delete your remark, I will delete this one with your quote for obvious not mentioned reasons.

[EDIT]Do I really have to spell it out? Judging a person or persons by their name and assuming misbehavior based on an assumed origin is prejudicial, derogatory and questionable ethical behavior. This is not about a statistical phenomenon observed on amazon and Co, where Asian menace is based on, and the derogatory remark is less about the people / ethnic group as it is about the stats.

So please, delete both. Thank you.[/EDIT]
Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 2:59:16 AM
I just watched the lovi-dovi example on the maker-kit with the dinos and It gave me a sugar rush.

My first unsatisfied customer was my brother. He asked me to paint a his car. I made a sketch and he hated it. What he meant was a testosterone drooling design and my skills weren't developed enough to make that happen.

I wasn't the only one. Don't get me wrong I have had lots and lots of happy customers. The site just is yuck giving me a sugar rush from the kitsch. In my experience life is far from cute and first three choices yeah found what I want is more the exception than the rule. From those first three comes the could we combine the nose from A and the eyes from C and can he have pink spots my child loves pink.

The emphasized friend with a talent for illustrations will oblige even when he or she violates a dozen IP violation. A pro might explain that the assets are not free to pick and choose elements from.

The pro expects payment for custom jobs.

Juz sayin' ...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯






Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 3:26:08 AM
vivendulies wrote:
PetsDreamlands wrote:
How it comes I'm not surprised it's a group of Chinese?

No, they're not. Don't get fooled by Asian looking names. The United States of America is a land of people with origins from around the globe. But they are full bred Americans.

When you delete your remark, I will delete this one with your quote for obvious not mentioned reasons.

My bad. Didn't scroll to the very end of that one-page Quo Vadis, nor didn't I open their guide to see an about us. When you are confronted with almost all Chinese names and have no other info at first sight AND you know how some worldwide businesses work, you come to certain conclusions. No racism, whatever, involved if that's what you alluded to. So, no. I'm not intended to delete my comment, but I admit I was wrong. In that specific case.

edit: deleted one other comment, tho, in that regard, because it was a bit more polemic (even if fact-based).
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:09:16 AM
I think the idea of the tool itself is a cool idea, but it should be made much more clear to the person that is invited, what they are invited into IMO, when it's not a blank product.
You just get an invtiation to Collaborate, so when you enter the create tool, you really have no idea that this is a product originally designed by a designer, and what part of the design was already there. Instead of getting an email where it just says: invitation to Collaborate, it could say something like: "you are invited to customize this product by zazzlestorename and an image of the original product", and the designername should be in the create tool at all times too, IMO.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:18:19 AM
Funcards wrote:
I think the idea of the tool itself is a cool idea, but it should be made much more clear to the person that is invited, what they are invited into IMO, when it's not a blank product.
You just get an invtiation to Collaborate, so when you enter the create tool, you really have no idea that this is a product originally designed by a designer, and what part of the design was already there. Instead of getting an email where it just says: invitation to Collaborate, it could say something like: "you are invited to customize this product by zazzlestorename and an image of the original product", and the designername should be in the create tool at all times too, IMO.


IMHO

The only collaboration initiator on my designs should be me and only me...

Hence Opt out is the only reasonable answer... but hitting Zazzle over the head with this concept ever since the icons came along has done nothing but make them even more dense and hard headed.


Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:29:55 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

IMHO

The only collaboration initiator on my designs should be me and only me...

Hence Opt out is the only reasonable answer... but hitting Zazzle over the head with this concept ever since the icons came along has done nothing but make them even more dense and hard headed.

I agree, there has to be a opt-out. I was just giving some feedback on the tool itself.
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:47:37 AM
Funcards wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

IMHO

The only collaboration initiator on my designs should be me and only me...

Hence Opt out is the only reasonable answer... but hitting Zazzle over the head with this concept ever since the icons came along has done nothing but make them even more dense and hard headed.

I agree, there has to be a opt-out. I was just giving some feedback on the tool itself.


Sorry I didn't mean to make you feel defensive... please accept my apology. Roses
Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:55:08 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:

IMHO

The only collaboration initiator on my designs should be me and only me...

Hence Opt out is the only reasonable answer... but hitting Zazzle over the head with this concept ever since the icons came along has done nothing but make them even more dense and hard headed.


I have no problem with collaboration as long as LICENSE AWARENESS is honored and the collaboration doesn't rages havoc with the "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED" license and renders my ability to defend my copyrights inert, mute, ineffective, nullified, dead as a dodo.

If the collaboration becomes the same as customizing there is no problem, why not have friends hang over a design and coordinate a wedding gift or even have the most obnoxious fun ...

Customers can have obnoxious fun now with a friend at their computer without the collaboration tool ...

The problem is not the collaboration, it is the license terms attached to them.

Posted: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:57:55 AM
vivendulies wrote:


The problem is not the collaboration, it is the license terms attached to them.



+1
Posted: Friday, November 15, 2019 5:29:54 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
vivendulies wrote:

The problem is not the collaboration, it is the license terms attached to them.

+1

Ditto.
Posted: Saturday, November 16, 2019 4:34:43 PM
The only thing I care about is do you get paid? Do collaborators share equal pay for their work? The rest is just yadda yadda yadda.
Posted: Saturday, November 16, 2019 5:17:52 PM
monoshoppe wrote:
The only thing I care about is do you get paid? Do collaborators share equal pay for their work? The rest is just yadda yadda yadda.


I should think no - because the only person able to post a up a collaborated item sale is the originator directly from the design tool, and then only if it starts as a blank product, is the collaboration originator, you could invite collaborators and then post). The others are blocked from posting the design tool and by the newest terms, will be removed from the site if they circumvent the tool and post the design anyway...

If you start with a third party design, then I believe the original owner gets their normal royalties when the item is purchased, which I think all of the collaborators are able to do.

Now, the 'adding elements' part and carve outs resulting there from, I don't know about exactly how that works.
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