Search not working as expected... 3 pages: [1] 2 3
Posted: Monday, January 21, 2019 3:36:19 PM
I have created some fractal abstract triptych art and they have the tags "fractal" and "abstract" along with others.

When I run a search for fractal acrylic triptych wall art there are 3 results... 3? I have made more than 3 and none of mine are there...

https://www.zazzle.com/s/fractal+triptych+acrylic+art

The next search for fractal abstract triptych yields up 198 results, one of which is mine but it is a canvas print not an acrylic triptych like the rest and none of my acrylic triptychs are there...

https://www.zazzle.com/s/fractal+abstract+triptych?q=fractal+abstract+triptych

No matter what I put into the search box I can't find any of my acrylic triptychs whether fractal or otherwise from either of my stores.

I was really hoping to sell some wall art here but how is that supposed to happen if searches with keywords I used for tags do not serve up any of my offerings?

this is just a few that I can't find...

256509015901076525
256479411245871323
256764699854134609
256124219239603587
256394142928987492
256994699950260229


ETA: I put this here in case it is not a bug... I can move it to tech if you think it is a bug.


Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 4:34:08 AM
First, I went to your store to see your triptychs so I might recognize them when searching, then I searched the marketplace using "triptych fractal," thinking it would find triptychs first, then fractals. Result? Almost entirely work by a single store that wasn't yours.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 6:28:44 AM
If I search for
fractal + triptych + acrylic
I get 11 results. All of them use all three of those key words in their tags. Of your 21 triptychs here, none of them have acrylic in the tags. So that makes sense to me as you're telling search to round up products that include all three of those words but your items are missing one (acrylic) and sometimes two (triptych) of them.

If I search for
fractal + triptych + abstract
I get 198 results (the majority of which are from the same store). One of the results is yours. Like the maybe 20 other results of this search where I checked the tags, yours also contains all three of the key words in the tags.

I would check all your tags and make sure to include all four of those terms (fractal, abstract, acrylic, triptych) if those are terms you want your items to come up for. It looks like you often use fractal and/or abstract, but only sometimes triptych and never acrylic. If you're searching for multiple keywords, your products need to include all of them to come up. ;)
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 7:42:25 AM
Once again, recent search issues point to the need for including product types in our descriptions.

I read on a blog last night about positive and negative changes to zazzle and one of the positive was a new keyword search that should help customers find items. I never saw anything about a new keyword search announced, but I was not active on here from the months of February through around September and then I came back so maybe I missed it and now I can’t find it. Does anyone know what that might have referred to?
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 7:53:40 AM
MelroseOriginals wrote:
Once again, recent search issues point to the need for including product types in our descriptions.

I read on a blog last night about positive and negative changes to zazzle and one of the positive was a new keyword search that should help customers find items. I never saw anything about a new keyword search announced, but I was not active on here from the months of February through around September and then I came back so maybe I missed it and now I can’t find it. Does anyone know what that might have referred to?


Yes that is what I am getting from this too that the former common idea that we only tag our designs and not add the product name as a tag is wrong and keeping us from being searchable.

I remember a recent thread about tumblers where Christine said if you want search to find tumbler you need to add it as a tag.

So my next question is when did this change or has that always been the case?

if so I have over 5000 products that need the tags revised. Sad
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 7:55:49 AM
Maybe it's something like the 80/20 principle - 20% of the artists on Zazzle capturing 80% of its market? Maybe it's even more lopsided than that. Whenever I do a search and add the Designer Store filter, the 10 shops that appear in the little box that comes up are some of the same ones, over and over. At the same time, I'm usually excluded despite having matching tags, and when I do appear, it's usually so far down in the results that my products are unlikely to be seen.

Conclusions: I'm not good at this Zazzle thing and don't fit their niche market, which is news to absolutely no one, myself included.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 7:57:43 AM
I wonder if the the combo of the paper breakout and the new tabbed search somehow altered the way things used to work. If so, it would be good to know, not just for us designers, but also for Zazzle. Designs not found can easily be designs not sold.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 7:59:41 AM
ColeenZ wrote:

If you're searching for multiple keywords, your products need to include all of them to come up. ;)


I thought that the search should bring up any of the words or any combo of them that are used as a tag or in the title even if there is only one.

wishful thinking I guess...



Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:01:27 AM
Fuzzy Felosarix wrote:
Maybe it's something like the 80/20 principle - 20% of the artists on Zazzle capturing 80% of its market? Maybe it's even more lopsided than that. Whenever I do a search and add the Designer Store filter, the 10 shops that appear in the little box that comes up are some of the same ones, over and over. At the same time, I'm usually excluded despite having matching tags, and when I do appear, it's usually so far down in the results that my products are unlikely to be seen.

Conclusions: I'm not good at this Zazzle thing and don't fit their niche market, which is news to absolutely no one, myself included.


Don't feel like that Fuzzy. It's just a bit harder for people who have more of an art focus than riding the (very lucrative) latest wedding/design trend wave. You just have to keep trying different ways to do things and quite possibly going in and editing tags might make a difference.

Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:05:23 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
MelroseOriginals wrote:
Once again, recent search issues point to the need for including product types in our descriptions.

I read on a blog last night about positive and negative changes to zazzle and one of the positive was a new keyword search that should help customers find items. I never saw anything about a new keyword search announced, but I was not active on here from the months of February through around September and then I came back so maybe I missed it and now I can’t find it. Does anyone know what that might have referred to?


Yes that is what I am getting from this too that the former common idea that we only tag our designs and not add the product name as a tag is wrong and keeping us from being searchable.

I remember a recent thread about tumblers where Christine said if you want search to find tumbler you need to add it as a tag.

So my next question is when did this change or has that always been the case?

if so I have over 5000 products that need the tags revised. Sad


Crying I have been working on tags this week, but I did not once add a product type.

Maybe an experiment of adding it to a few things might help. I don't have a way myself to gauge if that made a difference or not should I try it because I have very low sales that have been slowly increasing because of the nature of being a relatively new store with fairly niche art designs.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:09:15 AM
Thank you everyone for your help! I am going to have to rethink this whole tagging keyword thingy.

ETA: once again here is something I have to do, when I would rather be designing.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:17:28 AM
MelroseOriginals wrote:
[quote=Fuzzy Felosarix]Maybe it's something like the 80/20 principle - 20% of the artists on Zazzle capturing 80% of its market? Maybe it's even more lopsided than that. Whenever I do a search and add the Designer Store filter, the 10 shops that appear in the little box that comes up are some of the same ones, over and over. At the same time, I'm usually excluded despite having matching tags, and when I do appear, it's usually so far down in the results that my products are unlikely to be seen.

Conclusions: I'm not good at this Zazzle thing and don't fit their niche market, which is news to absolutely no one, myself included.




I understand how you feel Fuzzy. I have hit on a few trends but for the most part the art that I would rather sell is falling flat. People like to look at it but nobody buys it. But I am not quite ready to give up just yet. I have sold one poster with my original abstract art so it is not impossible... just right next door to it.

@Malissa
I agree and want to at least try changing things up to see what happens.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:54:02 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:


Yes that is what I am getting from this too that the former common idea that we only tag our designs and not add the product name as a tag is wrong and keeping us from being searchable.

I remember a recent thread about tumblers where Christine said if you want search to find tumbler you need to add it as a tag.

So my next question is when did this change or has that always been the case?

if so I have over 5000 products that need the tags revised. Sad




I didn't really think about this until this thread (didn't see the tumbler thread) so I did an experiment:


search 1 "flamingo invitation"> the first result has "invitation" in tags.


search 2 "flamingo">drill down to invitations via the category dropdown> the first result does not have "invitation" in tags.



So my guess is that the new tabbed search layout where search terms (starting with ones the searcher used) run along the top is when the change took place. It looks like now a search prioritizes tags so that those who use the product name as a tag will come up ahead of those who didn't (all other things being equal). It gets around the problem of design elements also being product types (which we had many distressed threads about in the past) since now a tag that is a design element no longer defaults exclusively to the product type. If I type in "candles" I get a whole page of candles but the category boxes along the top also shows the Invitations category with a birthday cake and candles on a card.


However, I'm pretty sure there was never a formal announcement of this change in search. I read every last word of every post in the Zazzle News forum and would have noticed it. Such an announcement would also have generated a lot of threads.


So I guess it's time to embark on the project of adding a product tag to my designs. I shall start with the ones with the least views since clearly they are the least able to be found based purely on design tags.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:58:16 AM
ColeenZ wrote:
If I search for
fractal + triptych + acrylic
I get 11 results. All of them use all three of those key words in their tags. Of your 21 triptychs here, none of them have acrylic in the tags. So that makes sense to me as you're telling search to round up products that include all three of those words but your items are missing one (acrylic) and sometimes two (triptych) of them.

If I search for
fractal + triptych + abstract
I get 198 results (the majority of which are from the same store). One of the results is yours. Like the maybe 20 other results of this search where I checked the tags, yours also contains all three of the key words in the tags.

I would check all your tags and make sure to include all four of those terms (fractal, abstract, acrylic, triptych) if those are terms you want your items to come up for. It looks like you often use fractal and/or abstract, but only sometimes triptych and never acrylic. If you're searching for multiple keywords, your products need to include all of them to come up. ;)



What this seems to prove is that the keywords in a title are not searchable

I never added "triptych" because it is already in the title and I thought search should pick up on it from there.

But our test searches are not picking it up from the titles, not just on mine but on anybody's.

With only 3 results on my first search seems to say that something is wrong with search...the words fractal abstract triptych are so general they should bring up way more than 3 results especially when the word triptych is added to the title of every triptych in the MP.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:04:34 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
Yes that is what I am getting from this too that the former common idea that we only tag our designs and not add the product name as a tag is wrong and keeping us from being searchable.

I remember a recent thread about tumblers where Christine said if you want search to find tumbler you need to add it as a tag.

So my next question is when did this change or has that always been the case?


There are two ways to "search" for something. One would be just by drilling down through the product category tree in which case Zazzle knows your tumbler is a tumbler and your triptych is a triptych so your product should be there without having to add product type as a key word. We now have a lot more say in choosing categories so that may have complicated things.
The other way is doing a manual search - entering keywords in the search engine. A classic, straightforward search means that whatever terms you enter need to appear on the page to meet the search criteria and come up. So if you are looking for a yellow, floral tumbler you would search for "yellow floral tumbler". We've been under the assumption that Zazzle automatically, invisibly includes "tumbler". And then we worry about the "black out" words Zazle might ignore. Confusing for designers and shoppers both.
So if Zazzle has changed things to where we need for sure to include "tumbler" (or whatever) ourselves, I really think that is for the best. Relying on invisible automatic tags or tags that aren't counted, due to some internal functioning, is just whacked. I'd much prefer knowing that the tags I type myself (coupled with the title) are what's being used to find my product. Everything is just much clearer that way, for the shopper as well I think.

Also a note: Yesterday I made a gift bag (Zazzle's product type)and used "favor bag" as a tag (but not "gift bag"). If I search for it as "keyword + favor bag" it comes up. But it does not come up if I search for same keyword + "gift bag". Interesting. My tag is working but the one we assume Zazzle is adding ("gift bag") is not. So I went back and manually added "gift bag" as a tag.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:05:04 AM
Susannah Keegan wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:


Yes that is what I am getting from this too that the former common idea that we only tag our designs and not add the product name as a tag is wrong and keeping us from being searchable.

I remember a recent thread about tumblers where Christine said if you want search to find tumbler you need to add it as a tag.

So my next question is when did this change or has that always been the case?

if so I have over 5000 products that need the tags revised. Sad




I didn't really think about this until this thread (didn't see the tumbler thread) so I did an experiment:


search 1 "flamingo invitation"> the first result has "invitation" in tags.


search 2 "flamingo">drill down to invitations via the category dropdown> the first result does not have "invitation" in tags.



So my guess is that the new tabbed search layout where search terms (starting with ones the searcher used) run along the top is when the change took place. It looks like now a search prioritizes tags so that those who use the product name as a tag will come up ahead of those who didn't (all other things being equal). It gets around the problem of design elements also being product types (which we had many distressed threads about in the past) since now a tag that is a design element no longer defaults exclusively to the product type. If I type in "candles" I get a whole page of candles but the category boxes along the top also shows the Invitations category with a birthday cake and candles on a card.


However, I'm pretty sure there was never a formal announcement of this change in search. I read every last word of every post in the Zazzle News forum and would have noticed it. Such an announcement would also have generated a lot of threads.


So I guess it's time to embark on the project of adding a product tag to my designs. I shall start with the ones with the least views since clearly they are the least able to be found based purely on design tags.


Thank you Susannah for your research and input. I was hoping you would chime in since you seem to understand more about how searches in general work.

I am going to revise my tags as well starting with my art then going on to the ones with the least views also, since they will be easiest to notice if there is a difference.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:09:25 AM
Quote:
What this seems to prove is that the keywords in a title are not searchable

I never added "triptych" because it is already in the title and I thought search should pick up on it from there.

But our test searches are not picking it up from the titles, not just on mine but on anybody's.

With only 3 results on my first search seems to say that something is wrong with search...the words fractal abstract triptych are so general they should bring up way more than 3 results especially when the word triptych is added to the title of every triptych in the MP.


The product titles sometimes vary though. Going back to your collection of 21 triptychs, four of them do NOT have "triptych" in the title Zazzle automatically adds. I've noticed this on my own products, especially leggings which sometimes get titled as "leggings" and sometime as "yoga pants". This is one reason I am THRILLED to find that the new post-for-sale page shows us what the exact title will be.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:10:01 AM
It would be nice to get some better clear guidance from Z on how these things are supposed to work and if they have changed things up from how they used to work but I guess if we grope around enough we eventually will stumble on something that works... Idea
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:13:19 AM
ColeenZ wrote:
Quote:
What this seems to prove is that the keywords in a title are not searchable

I never added "triptych" because it is already in the title and I thought search should pick up on it from there.

But our test searches are not picking it up from the titles, not just on mine but on anybody's.

With only 3 results on my first search seems to say that something is wrong with search...the words fractal abstract triptych are so general they should bring up way more than 3 results especially when the word triptych is added to the title of every triptych in the MP.


The product titles sometimes vary though. Going back to your collection of 21 triptychs, four of them do NOT have "triptych" in the title Zazzle automatically adds. I've noticed this on my own products, especially leggings which sometimes get titled as "leggings" and sometime as "yoga pants". This is one reason I am THRILLED to find that the new post-for-sale page shows us what the exact title will be.


Thanks Coleenz, I never even noticed that I had some without Triptych in the title... I agree about the new post for sale page.

Yoga Pants? I haven't seen that one yet...
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:15:30 AM
Thinking about this, the hardest part about it is that you never know how someone is going to search so you need to cover all the bases in order to have the best chance of getting seen.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:17:19 AM
A few days ago I started a thread here that I think is possibly relevant to the search results we are seeing from this thread. I know that I have tags and keywords in my titles that should have come up in that search, but they did not show up at all as well as the search stopping as if all products in the MP with that keyword had been exhausted.

Maybe its time for a rewrite of the best tagging methods for us by the powers that be or at least an announcement with clarification of any changes that impact our current tags.
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:17:53 AM
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
It would be nice to get some better clear guidance from Z on how these things are supposed to work and if they have changed things up from how they used to work but I guess if we grope around enough we eventually will stumble on something that works... Idea


I was way too slow on my reply Laughing
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:23:36 AM
MelroseOriginals wrote:
Shelli Fitzpatrick wrote:
It would be nice to get some better clear guidance from Z on how these things are supposed to work and if they have changed things up from how they used to work but I guess if we grope around enough we eventually will stumble on something that works... Idea


I was way to slow on my reply Laughing


I am glad to have a second reinforcement! Laughing
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 10:04:48 AM
MelroseOriginals wrote:
Fuzzy Felosarix wrote:
Maybe it's something like the 80/20 principle - 20% of the artists on Zazzle capturing 80% of its market? Maybe it's even more lopsided than that. Whenever I do a search and add the Designer Store filter, the 10 shops that appear in the little box that comes up are some of the same ones, over and over. At the same time, I'm usually excluded despite having matching tags, and when I do appear, it's usually so far down in the results that my products are unlikely to be seen.

Conclusions: I'm not good at this Zazzle thing and don't fit their niche market, which is news to absolutely no one, myself included.


Don't feel like that Fuzzy. It's just a bit harder for people who have more of an art focus than riding the (very lucrative) latest wedding/design trend wave. You just have to keep trying different ways to do things and quite possibly going in and editing tags might make a difference.

It's okay. I've mostly made peace with the fact that I'm probably never going to make more than a couple of sales per month here, along with some zero sales months (January is shaping up to be the latter, but that was normal before the bottom dropped out in 2016.)
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:13:33 AM
I've deleted some of my earlier posts about an example where searching on three terms produced a top match that only had one of those terms in the tags, while an item with all three terms in the tags is dead last in the search results.

Taking a second look, I see the reason is possibly because the top match does have all three terms in the title, though only one of them in the tags. The dead last result has all three terms in the tags, but only one of the exact terms the title, along with a second in plural form.

So...it's complicated. Suffice it to say, there is more to this than having an exact match for someone's search terms in your tags. You really have to look at both the title and the tags.
Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 7:31:31 AM
Just updating:

Yesterday I spent some time revising tags on some of my triptychs and now they are showing up in more searches. So this is going to be a lot of work but worth it.
Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 7:35:18 AM
Moving this to Create. Glad to see edits worked for you Shelli. Roses
Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 7:35:37 AM
Quote:
what I am getting from this too that the former common idea that we only tag our designs and not add the product name as a tag is wrong and keeping us from being searchable.


Originally, we were told "not" to add the product type to tags. That was a number of years ago.

Quote:
So my next question is when did this change or has that always been the case?


That's my question too...at least for the first part of the question...the second is definitely a 'no'...it hasn't always been that way.

Ironically, in reviewing tags on some old products (trying to improve them for promotion), I noticed that the product type was in most of the tags. I didn't put the product name in the tag...so who did? So I removed them? Ugh!

So many changes (flip-flop) on the part of Zazzle, it is very difficult to produce and promote properly. I suspect that these wild pendulum swings in the way Zazzle does business is going to affect sales.
Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 1:57:44 PM
Digitalbcon wrote:
Quote:
what I am getting from this too that the former common idea that we only tag our designs and not add the product name as a tag is wrong and keeping us from being searchable.


Originally, we were told "not" to add the product type to tags. That was a number of years ago.

Quote:
So my next question is when did this change or has that always been the case?


That's my question too...at least for the first part of the question...the second is definitely a 'no'...it hasn't always been that way.

Ironically, in reviewing tags on some old products (trying to improve them for promotion), I noticed that the product type was in most of the tags. I didn't put the product name in the tag...so who did? So I removed them? Ugh!

So many changes (flip-flop) on the part of Zazzle, it is very difficult to produce and promote properly. I suspect that these wild pendulum swings in the way Zazzle does business is going to affect sales.


Thanks for the confirmation on that, I thought it was an official Zazzle policy when I started here but recently I have been questioning where I got that advice from and also wondering if it was misinformation.

I am going to stop recommending it to newbies for sure...
Posted: Wednesday, January 23, 2019 1:58:18 PM
James wrote:
Moving this to Create. Glad to see edits worked for you Shelli. Roses


Thank you James. Sorry for the wrong forum section.
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