Judy 2 pages: [1] 2
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 8:44:09 AM
I am trying to set up my first product, a canvas and I am not doing something right. I looked at the guide files but everything is removed. I currently have the image saved at 100ppi but when I use the tool to get it to fill the canvas I get a warning that I have to fix the error. The image itself is approximately 12 inches by 12 inches.

Also, can I use the same size image for any of the canvas sizes?
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 8:58:57 AM
Most people here rely on on 300 ppi images with a minimum of 3000 x 3000 ppi total area. That size, however, can still be undersized, depending on the area you want to fill. If the image is 300 ppi, this means it's 10 inches on each side. If the canvas is 20 inches, the image probably won't be able to fill it.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 10:21:57 AM
We don't need to concern ourselves with the ppi/dpi of our images. What's important is whether there are enough pixels, not how they're arranged. The dpi will be set correctly in the file output by Zazzle for printing regardless of the ppi of our original images.
If you're getting a warning that the image isn't large enough then you need to choose a smaller canvas or upload a larger image.

Steve.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 11:08:30 AM
Steve Crompton wrote:
We don't need to concern ourselves with the ppi/dpi of our images. What's important is whether there are enough pixels, not how they're arranged. The dpi will be set correctly in the file output by Zazzle for printing regardless of the ppi of our original images.
If you're getting a warning that the image isn't large enough then you need to choose a smaller canvas or upload a larger image.

Steve.

The way I understand it, and for example, if we have two 8 x 10 in. images, one of them being 100 ppi and the other 300 ppi, if they're both enlarged 200%, the space between pixels becomes extremely important, and in all likelihood, the 100-ppi image will fall apart long before the more densely populated one.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 11:21:31 AM
colorwash wrote:
The way I understand it, and for example, if we have two 8 x 10 in. images, one of them being 100 ppi and the other 300 ppi, if they're both enlarged 200%, the space between pixels becomes extremely important, and in all likelihood, the 100-ppi image will fall apart long before the more densely populated one.

In that case I suggest any image at less than 1,000,000ppi be deleted from Zazzle immediately.
EDIT: What is it that's so magical about 300ppi/dpi?...if it makes a difference why stop there?

I've never heard of that theory before and I've always taken a great interest in digital imaging since the very early days. I've also worked in the print industry for a good number of years as a camera operator/technician in graphic repro (the department which makes designs printable).

Steve.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 11:32:32 AM
Steve Crompton wrote:
[What is it that's so magical about 300ppi/dpi?...if it makes a difference why stop there?


I've always wondered this as well.

I read on here one time something about Zazzle automatically chainging it to 150 ppi, so I usually do 150 ppi and use a 7500x7500 image. But then, mine are full-cover b/c it's abstract art. So that may make a difference.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 11:35:28 AM
ppi is resolution. resolution is important. just think of it like the resolution on a TV. a 1080p TV needs to scale up a 720p movie or show so it doesn't lose pixels, some TVs have software that is better than others at this just as I imagine some print software is better than others at scaling resolution.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 11:52:21 AM
Jerry wrote:
ppi is resolution. resolution is important. just think of it like the resolution on a TV. a 1080p TV needs to scale up a 720p movie or show so it doesn't lose pixels, some TVs have software that is better than others at this just as I imagine some print software is better than others at scaling resolution.

Sorry Jerry, we're not outputting the final file for printing, Zazzle are. The ppi of our images has no effect on the outcome, the number of pixels does. The ppi of a digital image is nothing more than a number in the raw code which makes up the image.
If we were supplying images sized individually for specific products and print processes it might be different, but we're not.

Steve.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 12:01:49 PM
Oh Em Gee...Y'all are making my brain hurt...
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 12:21:13 PM
Fharrynland wrote:
Steve Crompton wrote:
[What is it that's so magical about 300ppi/dpi?...if it makes a difference why stop there?


I've always wondered this as well.

I read on here one time something about Zazzle automatically chainging it to 150 ppi, so I usually do 150 ppi and use a 7500x7500 image. But then, mine are full-cover b/c it's abstract art. So that may make a difference.


I can't speak for other graphics programs, but mine I always create at 300ppi by the final size I want (ex: 4000x4000) and the final export is done at 67.7 million because when I save as a .gif the resulting image is converted to 118.110 pixels per centimeter. I don't do centimeters so have no idea what that converts to in inches but I've only had a problem w/the largest products having an image to small.

Depending on the product I would never start out so low because I read somewhere on Zazzle that the higher the ppi or dpi?? we start with the better the final resolution and even very much better on much smaller products.

JMO

Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 12:44:28 PM
Steve Crompton wrote:
The ppi of our images has no effect on the outcome, the number of pixels does.

I don't understand. "ppi" would be pixels per inch; in other words, a measurement of pixel density, right? Wouldn't the pixel density and image dimensions be used to calculate the total number of pixels?

It appears that you're saying it doesn't matter because of something Zazzle does with our original images to render them for printing. Do all 8" x 10" images have the same number of pixels after Zazzle converts our original images?

It's all very confusing. Just when I think I understand it, I find that I don't again.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 1:26:35 PM
One of the biggest confusions for people is that dpi (which Zazzle has erroneously used instead of ppi) is strictly a printer term: how many (ink) dots per inch. The printing mechanism doesn't give a hoot about someone's pixels per inch because, regardless of that, the printer will print at whatever resolution it's set up to use.

The problem here is that Zazzle knows when an image is too small, but hey, we can just resize our image in our software by turning a 300ppi image into a 72ppi image, right? Yes, but exactly how good is it going to look with so much space between the pixels? My experience has been that it isn't going to look good at all.

I'm not putting myself out there as an expert. I'm only speaking from what I was taught, and there's always the problem of not knowing what we don't know.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 2:07:59 PM
colorwash wrote:
One of the biggest confusions for people is that dpi (which Zazzle has erroneously used instead of ppi) is strictly a printer term: how many (ink) dots per inch. The printing mechanism doesn't give a hoot about someone's pixels per inch because, regardless of that, the printer will print at whatever resolution it's set up to use.

The problem here is that Zazzle knows when an image is too small, but hey, we can just resize our image in our software by turning a 300ppi image into a 72ppi image, right? Yes, but exactly how good is it going to look with so much space between the pixels? My experience has been that it isn't going to look good at all.

I'm not putting myself out there as an expert. I'm only speaking from what I was taught, and there's always the problem of not knowing what we don't know.


I think you're quite right, colorwash, nothing is going to print out well at 72 dpi/ppi, even though that looks OK on our computer screens.

The way I've always got my head around the 'size/resolution' thing is to think of resolution being like 'miles-per-hour' and size being like 'distance'.

If Vehicle A travels at a higher 'miles per hour' than Vehicle B over the same distance, Vehicle A will arrive first.

Similarly, if we upload 2 images, both the same size (eg 10-inches x 12 inches) but one is 100 ppi and the other is 300 ppi, you can stretch the 300 ppi image to fit a bigger surface (eg a shower curtain) with less loss of definition than if you try to do the same thing with the 100 ppi image.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 2:54:26 PM
poshandpainterly wrote:
Similarly, if we upload 2 images, both the same size (eg 10-inches x 12 inches) but one is 100 ppi and the other is 300 ppi, you can stretch the 300 ppi image to fit a bigger surface (eg a shower curtain) with less loss of definition than if you try to do the same thing with the 100 ppi image.

Not true, the number of pixels in a digital image is effectively its resolution, not the ppi.
To put it another way, the number of pixels in a digital image determines how large it can be printed, not the ppi setting.

Steve.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 3:45:02 PM
Steve Crompton wrote:
, the number of pixels in a digital image is effectively its resolution, not the ppi.


Photoshop CS5



you are right in that size matters, but so does resolution.


Steve Crompton wrote:


Sorry Jerry, we're not outputting the final file for printing, Zazzle are. The ppi of our images has no effect on the outcome, the number of pixels does. The ppi of a digital image is nothing more than a number in the raw code which makes up the image.If we were supplying images sized individually for specific products and print processes it might be different, but we're not.


we do need to size for many products here but I think you have ppi and dpi mixed up. or you may be thinking of megapixels? photography is a little different. but when creating designs from scratch you are going to want to stick to around 200-300 ppi.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 5:00:46 PM
Yes Jerry, I'm familiar with Photoshop's 'resolution' setting and I'm sorry but that doesn't affect the quality of a digital image unless the resize/resample box is ticked. The effective resolution of a digital image is the number of pixels in that image, changing the ppi (the awesome Adobe used to refer to it as dpi!) has no effect on image quality on its own.

I'm not getting confused, I was a well qualified and experienced technician in the print industry before my stint as a professional photographer. We don't need to stick to around 200-300 ppi as it makes no difference.

We're supplying images for use at varying output sizes and print resolutions, whatever we set our ppi at it will be effectively changed according to the size once applied to the product. And the correct dpi will be set for final output after our work is done.

I've dealt with countless thousands of images during my professional career, and worked with professional designers, major book publishers and the like. I've got actual professional experience to back up what I'm saying - I'm not some self appointed armchair expert.

Steve.

EDIT: And ColorWash...there are no spaces between pixels.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 5:27:53 PM
Jim wrote:
I am trying to set up my first product, a canvas and I am not doing something right. I looked at the guide files but everything is removed. I currently have the image saved at 100ppi but when I use the tool to get it to fill the canvas I get a warning that I have to fix the error. The image itself is approximately 12 inches by 12 inches.

Also, can I use the same size image for any of the canvas sizes?


This doesn't answer your question directly, but Zazzle has a few tips in the blog here and in their support article here. Perhaps something there will be of help to you.

I'm not sure there ever was/will be guide files for canvas, as it's basically a square/rectangle. For something like an all-over print tank or heart-shaped ornament, those are specific shapes for us to fill, and I would expect guide files.

I do heed the pop-up warnings though, because even if I know it should print well, the customer will see that warning and likely not buy a product with such a warning (even with a satisfaction guarantee), so whether or not I can post it isn't the issue. So I defer to "whatever works for Zazzle"!
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 5:48:02 PM
Here's a couple of links;

http://www.rideau-info.com/photos/mythdpi.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfhdYd8hBRY

Those are just a couple from a web search of '300dpi quality myth'
The first one is the same one Oconnart posted on one of the previous occasions when this came up.
There are a large number of results for '300dpi quality myth' dating back to who knows when as countless people have tried to lay this ghost to rest over the years.

Steve.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:15:49 PM
For the spinning heads in the room, my bottom line is that if Zazzle's settings are such that an image, whether 72 or 300 dpi/ppi/tmi/whatever image will throw an error, I'm going to adjust my file. It doesn't matter at that point whether size matters. ;) It matters what Zazzle dictates, in their sole opinion, will produce a nice looking canvas someone is proud to have on their wall.

Smile
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:21:22 PM
roykronk wrote:
For the spinning heads in the room, my bottom line is that if Zazzle's settings are such that an image, whether 72 or 300 dpi/ppi/tmi/whatever image will throw an error, I'm going to adjust my file. It doesn't matter at that point whether size matters. ;) It matters what Zazzle dictates, in their sole opinion, will produce a nice looking canvas someone is proud to have on their wall

The ppi of an image doesn't cause errors on Zazzle though. My images vary according to how they were produced, they get mixed together in designs without issue. I basically pay little attention to the ppi of my images because it makes no difference.

Steve.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:46:58 PM
Steve Crompton wrote:
Yes Jerry, I'm familiar with Photoshop's 'resolution' setting and I'm sorry but that doesn't affect the quality of a digital image unless the resize/resample box is ticked. The effective resolution of a digital image is the number of pixels in that image, changing the ppi (the awesome Adobe used to refer to it as dpi!) has no effect on image quality on its own.

I'm not getting confused, I was a well qualified and experienced technician in the print industry before my stint as a professional photographer. We don't need to stick to around 200-300 ppi as it makes no difference.

We're supplying images for use at varying output sizes and print resolutions, whatever we set our ppi at it will be effectively changed according to the size once applied to the product. And the correct dpi will be set for final output after our work is done.

I've dealt with countless thousands of images during my professional career, and worked with professional designers, major book publishers and the like. I've got actual professional experience to back up what I'm saying - I'm not some self appointed armchair expert.



but you are talking about processing photographic and preexisting images. I am talking about creating vector graphics. as far as photography is concerned, you are dead on the money. I don't think ppi matters much once the RAW media has been processed unless the image goes through some sort of stylization technique.

Steve Crompton wrote:
Here's a couple of links;

http://www.rideau-info.com/photos/mythdpi.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfhdYd8hBRY

Those are just a couple from a web search of '300dpi quality myth'
The first one is the same one Oconnart posted on one of the previous occasions when this came up.
There are a large number of results for '300dpi quality myth' dating back to who knows when as countless people have tried to lay this ghost to rest over the years.

Steve.


both of those links are about photography.

it says on that page you linked to

"The PPI of a paper print IS a measure of quality (of the paper print, not of the digital photo) - but it has nothing (in real world terms) to do with the DPI/PPI setting within the photo".

But when we create graphics from scratch we are the ones deciding the resolution, clarity, motion, focus etc., not the camera and/or photographer.

my point is that if you are creating a graphic in photoshop you are going to want to create it at 300 ppi, going beyond 300 ppi is probably pointless but if you create the graphic at say 150 ppi, then just like a photograph it is stuck at a maximum resolution. that means you won't be able to blow that graphic image up for larger products, like the throw blankets for example, without it looking blurred.

if we are talking raw media and preexisting graphics on the other hand, I agree with everything you have pointed out.

ETA: the confusion is on my side here, the OP stated "currently have the image saved at 100ppi" so your advice is sound. I am not a photographer per se, so I always think in terms of vector graphics when it comes to photoshop, sorry for the confusion.

Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:57:57 PM
Steve Crompton wrote:
The ppi of an image doesn't cause errors on Zazzle though. My images vary according to how they were produced, they get mixed together in designs without issue. I basically pay little attention to the ppi of my images because it makes no difference.

Steve.


Very few of my files specify a ppi, doesn't cause any problems. Resolution is one of the things I habitually strip when I export .pngs from my image files.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 7:14:44 PM
Jerry wrote:
my point is that if you are creating a graphic in photoshop you are going to want to create it at 300 ppi, going beyond 300 ppi is probably pointless but if you create the graphic at say 150 ppi, then just like a photograph it is stuck at a maximum resolution. that means you won't be able to blow that graphic image up for larger products, like the throw blankets for example, without it looking blurred

The problem (and misunderstanding) in this statement is that you're talking about the ppi of the image with no reference at all the the overall dimensions of the image - it's the latter which matters.
I'm lucky enough to have access to Cinema 4D for some of my 3D work and it has the curious habit of rendering images at 150ppi regardless of what the settings indicate. I pay no heed to that because all I'm interested in are the overall dimensions, where pixels are concerned all I want to know is how many pixels, not how many pixels per inch.
As for those two links being about photography, it doesn't matter that they're both photo based they're about bitmap digital images and its the same for a bitmap image produced in Photoshop from a blank canvas.

Steve.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 7:18:40 PM
Steve Crompton wrote:
roykronk wrote:
For the spinning heads in the room, my bottom line is that if Zazzle's settings are such that an image, whether 72 or 300 dpi/ppi/tmi/whatever image will throw an error, I'm going to adjust my file. It doesn't matter at that point whether size matters. ;) It matters what Zazzle dictates, in their sole opinion, will produce a nice looking canvas someone is proud to have on their wall

The ppi of an image doesn't cause errors on Zazzle though. My images vary according to how they were produced, they get mixed together in designs without issue. I basically pay little attention to the ppi of my images because it makes no difference.

Steve.


I rarely pay attention to PPI also, but I don't know that it is or isn't causing the error. How do you know that it's not the PPI? I'm not being smart; I really want to know where to find this information.

The error simply says, "We can't move forward 'til you fix the errors below. This product contains some images which have been made larger than their original sizes and may be blurry or pixelated when your product is produced."

We could assume that means I'm trying to make an 8x10 image (of whatever other quality factors) and blow it up to 16x20, but that is rarely the case for me. I'm often stumped by this error's appearance.

I don't happen to know what formula the programming uses to determine that this error will appear. The programming can be written to throw that error for an appropriate reason or it could say "if today = Tuesday + product is canvas = Produce this error." I'm sure it doesn't, but my point is that the programming is looking at factors unknown to me and those factors may or may not be relative to DPI and/or PPI.

And that's why I posted the links I did earlier. If Zazzle specifies sizes, shapes, DPI, or PPI, that's what matters. What I think should work doesn't matter when I'm making products.

Liz's blog post (the one I posted up there) says, "Bonus tip: Don’t forget to make sure your images are high-resolution! We recommend images at 100 – 300 dpi. We’ll be adding more in the future, but guide files for some products can be found here." (The guide files are a broken link.)

The support article (the one I posted up there) says, "To ensure your images are the correct size and resolution, we recommend starting with one of the Zazzle Guide Files. These guide files are the correct size and resolution required for great results. Higher resolutions will have even better results.

The general resolution requirements (in pixels per inch) are:

150ppi for apparel, aprons, bags, hats, mousepads, and ties.
200ppi for mugs, drinkware, calendars, cards, keychains, magnets, postcards, and all stickers.
300ppi for custom postage
150 ppi for photo enlargements/prints, and posters
To fill the full area on any product, we recommend that you use images that are equal to or larger than the recommended sizes. In the Design Tool, a resolution warning will appear for any images sized larger than the resolution of the image allows."


I glean from this that both DPI and PPI may be a factor in the programming which determines whether or not that error rears its ugly head.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 7:29:19 PM
@Roy,

I didn't realise you were talking of an actual error you're getting - sorry!

First off, what size is your image (pixel dimensions) and what is the product which is giving the error.

Steve.

EDIT: I'll check back tomorrow, I've just noticed it's 4:35 AM here!
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 7:38:51 PM
Steve Crompton wrote:
@Roy,

I didn't realise you were talking of an actual error you're getting - sorry!

First off, what size is your image (pixel dimensions) and what is the product which is giving the error.

Steve.


That's what OP is talking about:

Jim wrote:
I am trying to set up my first product, a canvas and I am not doing something right. I looked at the guide files but everything is removed. I currently have the image saved at 100ppi but when I use the tool to get it to fill the canvas I get a warning that I have to fix the error. The image itself is approximately 12 inches by 12 inches.

Also, can I use the same size image for any of the canvas sizes?


It may be the PPI matters and may just be that she or he is trying to use a 6x6 image on a 12x12 canvas. I don't know.

The last time I got the nuisance error, was using a 8100x5400, 150 DPI image straight out of my Canon 70D on a custom canvas order. I don't recall the size right now, but I was stumped. No way I should've been warned. I opened it in PS, increased my DPI (yes, I know, not PPI), and it was fine, and he loved the canvas.

Again, my only point is that it's the programming that matters more than anything (my opinion) - whatever Zazzle's programming says will work, will work, whether it makes sense to me and whether OP's PPI is 10 or 1000.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 7:39:46 PM
Steve Crompton wrote:
@Roy,

I didn't realise you were talking of an actual error you're getting - sorry!

First off, what size is your image (pixel dimensions) and what is the product which is giving the error.

Steve.

EDIT: I'll check back tomorrow, I've just noticed it's 4:35 AM here!


P.S. No need to be sorry; good interaction going on here. Mostly. LOL
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 8:14:22 PM
Steve Crompton wrote:

The problem (and misunderstanding) in this statement is that you're talking about the ppi of the image with no reference at all the the overall dimensions of the image - it's the latter which matters.
I'm lucky enough to have access to Cinema 4D for some of my 3D work and it has the curious habit of rendering images at 150ppi regardless of what the settings indicate. I pay no heed to that because all I'm interested in are the overall dimensions, where pixels are concerned all I want to know is how many pixels, not how many pixels per inch.
As for those two links being about photography, it doesn't matter that they're both photo based they're about bitmap digital images and its the same for a bitmap image produced in Photoshop from a blank canvas.

Steve.


I was speaking under the assumption that the image was sized using Zazzle's image guidelines for the particular product. Why do we have those guidelines then?

Anyway I wasn't trying to pretend to be some sort of expert on ppi versus dpi or start an argument. I was simply sharing what I have learned during my time here at Zazzle and my 17 + years of using photoshop. You could tell me a million times to create my designs for Zazzle, or any other POD, at 72 ppi or 100 ppi or even 150 ppi and I would ignore that advice a million times.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 8:28:38 PM
I still can't wrap my brain around this. If you have a 10" square image measuring 3000 pixels x 3000 pixels, then its resolution is going to be 300 ppi. You divide the width in pixels by the width in inches to arrive at the pixels per inch (ppi) - the image's resolution. And yes, I realize the dots per inch (dpi) settings of the printer aren't the same thing.

I just can't figure out how you get from the above to a place where image resolution doesn't matter at all.

I assume that Zazzle has a reason for advising that our images meet a certain minimum resolution for various products; that it matters in some way to their printing process. As a designer I don't really need to know the details of how - I just need to know what works and what doesn't with regard to the images I provide.
Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 8:48:13 PM
Felosarix wrote:
I still can't wrap my brain around this. If you have a 10" square image measuring 3000 pixels x 3000 pixels, then its resolution is going to be 300 ppi. You divide the width in pixels by the width in inches to arrive at the pixels per inch (ppi) - the image's resolution. And yes, I realize the dots per inch (dpi) settings of the printer aren't the same thing.

I just can't figure out how you get from the above to a place where image resolution doesn't matter at all.

I assume that Zazzle has a reason for advising that our images meet a certain minimum resolution for various products; that it matters in some way to their printing process. As a designer I don't really need to know the details of how - I just need to know what works and what doesn't with regard to the images I provide.



I think what they're getting at is that if your image is large enough (dimensions) then it shouldn't matter what the ppi is. And that is true depending on the software and machinery being used to print the graphic. What I was referring to was based on using Zazzle's recommended image guides, those used to be way more prevalent here, like on every product page, and the OP mentioned the guide files. Based on my experience here since 2007 as a Zazzle designer, not a photographer or print expert, ppi does matter, depending on the size of your image. If you use Zazzle's recommended image sizes then you should use their recommended resolution (or ppi or dpi or whatever you want to call it) as well. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, lol.

of course, as always, I may be and probably am wrong.
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