Team Zazzle on the Orphanded Works Act? 5 pages: [1] 2 3 4 5
HahpiStuff
Posted: Thursday, April 24, 2008 5:16:21 PM

Groups: Member

Joined: 3/29/2007
Posts: 1,152
Location: The 740
There has been so much chatter about the Orphan Works Act lately and it made me wonder...

If this act passes it will not only put many artists in a crunch, but also all of the POD sites as well, including this one.

Has Zazzle or IS Zazzle planning on doing or saying anything to oppose this act?
TDSwhite
Posted: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:16:57 PM

Groups: Member

Joined: 10/23/2005
Posts: 188
Location: Wedding Invitation Postage
HahpiStuff wrote:
There has been so much chatter about the Orphan Works Act lately and it made me wonder...

If this act passes it will not only put many artists in a crunch, but also all of the POD sites as well, including this one.

Has Zazzle or IS Zazzle planning on doing or saying anything to oppose this act?


Orphan Act

HahpiStuff - in what way will this put a crunch on Artists who create original works? It seems the act protects the creators of the works if they find their works being used by unauthorized individuals/company's.
HahpiStuff
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 12:29:52 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 3/29/2007
Posts: 1,152
Location: The 740
Depends on what you read I guess....here are a few of the things I have read.

New Orphan Works Act Due Out This Week

by by The Board of the Illustrators' Partnership


April 22, 2008

Today the House and Senate sent us draft copies of the new Orphan Works Act of 2008. They haven’t officially released it yet, but we’ve been told the Senate will do so this week. A quick analysis confirms our worst fears and our early warnings. If these proposals are enacted into law, all the work you have ever done or will do could be orphaned and exposed to commercial infringement from the moment you create it.

A webcast interview with Brad Holland about this bill is now available at:
http://www.sellyourtvconceptnow.com/orphan.html" class="bodyCopyLink" target="_blank">
http://www.sellyourtvconceptnow.com/orphan.html.

Please listen to it because this radical proposal, now pending before Congress, could cost you your past and future copyrights.

On Saturday April 5,2008, artist and producer Mark Simon interviewed Hall of Fame illustrator Brad Holland on the subject of Orphan Works legislation. The warnings in this interview have now been confirmed by the advance drafts of the bill. Learn what artists groups are doing and how you can help oppose this radical departure from traditional copyright law and business practice.

The Illustrators’ Partnership is currently working with our attorney - in concert with the other 12 groups in the American Society of Illustrators Partnership to have our voices – and yours - heard in Congress. We’ll keep you posted regarding how you can do your part.

Mark Simon has worked on over 2,500 productions in the last 20 years as a director, producer, story artist, animator and designer. His clients include Disney, Universal, Viacom, Sony, HBO, Nickelodeon, Steven Spielberg, Fox, USA Networks, ABC, AT&T, and many others.

Please forward this information to every creative person and group you know. Mr. Holland and Mr. Simon have given their permission for this audio file to be copied and transferred and replayed.

HahpiStuff
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 12:35:08 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 3/29/2007
Posts: 1,152
Location: The 740
It says quite a few times in everything that I have read so far that this bill is wanting 'copyrighting' to be done by private sectors, not the government. In doing so, this will be very costly to artists. Instead of paying the flat fee of $45 for an unlimited amount of works, it could be as much as $5 per illustration or more depending on the amount of private sectors that you have to registar with. They are pretty much going to make is so that eventually you will have to register with these private companies so that you wont get ripped off....I'm not sure about any of you but I have hundreds of designs that I don't want to take a chance on getting ripped off Sad


Or this...

Orphan Works – No Myth

by Brad Holland


We’ve seen “Six Misconceptions About Orphan Works” circulating on the Internet. It’s a well-reasoned piece, but has one problem. The author cites current copyright law to “debunk” concerns about an amendment that would change the law she cites.

How would the proposed amendment change the law? We’ll get to that and other questions in a minute. But first, let’s answer the broader charge that news of an Orphan Works bill is just “an internet myth.”

Q: There is no Orphan Works bill before Congress – one was introduced in 2006, but it was never voted on.
A: Correct. The last bill died in Congress because of intense opposition from illustrators, photographers, fine artists, and textile designers. The Illustrators’ Partnership testified against it in both the House and Senate. http://www.illustratorspartnership.org/01_topics/article.php?searchterm=00203

Q: So if the bill is dead, why warn everybody about it now?
A: Because a new bill is due out momentarily. According to Andrew Noyes of the National Journal:


“Legislation aimed at reworking a portion of U.S. copyright law dealing with ‘orphan works’... will likely be a priority for the panel headed by House Judiciary Courts, the Internet and Intellectual Property Subcommittee Chairman Howard Berman, D-Calif., in the spring...

“American Library Association copyright specialist Carrie Russell said her members are ‘excited about having orphan works legislation’ move this session,’” adding: “the House effort is ‘so close to being a done deal that we’re on the edge of our seats.’” -Intellectual Property -Progress Seen on Developing ‘Orphan Works’ Legislation, by Andrew Noyes © National Journal Group, Inc. 02-21-2008


Q: But if there isn’t a new bill yet, how can we know what’s going to be in it?
A: Our information indicates the new bill will be basically the same as the old one. According to the Copyright Clearance Center:

“Subcommittee chairman Howard Berman made it quite clear that he intends to introduce new orphan works legislation shortly... It is likely the new bill will look very similar to The Orphan Works Act of 2006.” http://oncopyright.copyright.com/2008/03/17/orphan-works-are-back-on-congress%e2%80%99s-radar-screen/


Q: But if it’s due out shortly, why not wait until it’s been introduced before we oppose it?
A: To quote from the Copyright Clearance Center:

“Since this is an election year, and re-election campaigns will be in full swing by late summer, new orphan works legislation will probably be fast-tracked to reach the floor of the House by mid-May”. http://oncopyright.copyright.com/2008/03/17/orphan-works-are-back-on-congress%e2%80%99s-radar-screen/

Since that would give us only a month to notify artists, we decided to start now.


Q: Do we have any direct corroboration for these press reports?
A: Since the last bill died, we’ve met with:

- Chairman Berman
- Attorneys from the Copyright Office
- Representatives of the House and Senate Subcommittees
- A lobbyist for Getty and Corbis. (Getty and Corbis oppose the bill, but are negotiating for favorable concessions.)

Q: Where did we get the idea that the Copyright Office wants to impose for-profit registries?
A: That proposal has been there from the beginning. Two examples (with emphasis added), the first from page 106 of the Copyright Office’s 2006 Orphan Works Report:

“[W]e believe that registries are critically important, if not indispensable, to addressing the orphan works problem...It is our view that such registries are better developed in the private sector...” http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/orphan-report.pdf

And on January 29 2007, twenty visual arts groups met in Washington D.C. with attorneys from the Copyright Office. The attorneys stated that the Copyright Office would not create these “indispensable” registries because it would be “too expensive.” So I asked the Associate Register for Policy & International Affairs:

Holland: If a user can’t find a registered work at the Copyright Office, hasn’t the Copyright Office facilitated the creation of an orphaned work?
Carson: Copyright owners will have to register their images with private registries.
Holland: But what if I exercise my exclusive right of copyright and choose not to register?
Carson: If you want to go ahead and create an orphan work, be my guest!
- From my notes of the meeting

This exchange suggests that if Copyright Office proposals become law:

- Unregistered work will be considered a potential orphan from the moment you create it.
- In the U.S., copyright will no longer be the exclusive right of the copyright holder.


Q: What does it mean to say your copyright is an “exclusive right”?
A: Under existing law, “[a] copyright gives the owner the exclusive right to reproduce, distribute, perform, display, or license his work…Under current law, works are covered whether or not a copyright notice is attached and whether or not the work is registered (emphasis added).”
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Copyright#copyright:_an_overview

Q: Why does this exclusive right matter?
A: Two big reasons:

- Creative control and ownership: No one can use or change your work without your permission.
- Value: In the marketplace the ability to sell exclusive rights to a client triples the value of your work.


Q: So how would the Orphan Works proposals endanger that right?
A: It would allow anyone who can’t find you (or who removes your name from your work and says he can’t) to infringe your work. Since infringements can occur anytime, anywhere in the world, they could be countless but you might never find them.

Q: So?
A: So:

- Under this bill, you would never again be able to assure a client that your work hasn’t been – or won’t be – infringed. Therefore
- You would never again be able to guarantee a client an exclusive right to license your work. This means
- Your entire inventory of work would be devalued by at least 2/3 from the moment this bill is signed into law.

Q: But the “orphan works problem” isn’t just something dreamed up by evil corporations to steal your vacation photographs. It’s an actual problem faced by academics, librarians, and others.
A: In drafting the 1976 Copyright Act, Congress weighed the issue of older works whose owners can’t be located. They concluded that the problem it created for users was outweighed by the benefits of harmonizing U.S. copyright law with international copyright law.


“A point that has concerned some educational groups arose from the possibility that, since a large majority (now about 85 percent) of all copyrighted works are not renewed, a life-plus-50 year term would tie up a substantial body of material that is probably of no commercial interest but that would be more readily available for scholarly use if free of copyright restrictions...

“[I]t is important to realize that the [1976] bill would not restrain scholars from using any work as source material or from making ‘fair use’ of it; the restrictions would extend only to the unauthorized reproduction or distribution of copies of the work, its public performance, or some other use that would actually infringe the copyright owner’s exclusive rights (emphasis added).” SOURCE: H.R. Rep. No. 94-1476, at 136 (1976) - Quoted on pages 15 –16 and 41 - 44 of the 2006 Orphan Works Report http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/orphan-report.pdf

Q: But the backers of the Orphan Works bill say it would merely amend the law to solve the problem of old work whose owners can’t be found.
A: It would solve the problem alright! But it would do so by making a potential orphan of any work by any artist, living or dead. This would be like trying to solve the crime problem by making everything legal.

Q: How would it orphan “any work by any artist, living or dead”?
A: As we testified before the Senate subcommittee in 2006: “The inability to distinguish between abandoned copyrights and those whose owners are simply hard to find is the Catch 22 of the Orphan Works project.

“Put simply, if a picture is unmarked, it’s impossible to source or date it. Therefore this amendment would orphan millions of valuable copyrights that cannot otherwise be distinguished from true orphaned works - and that would open the door to cultural theft on an unprecedented scale.” http://www.illustratorspartnership.org/01_topics/article.php?searchterm=00203

Q: But the Copyright Office says the infringer would first have to make a “reasonably diligent search” to find the copyright holder.
A: Yes, but last time, this opened a Pandora’s Box of problems. No one was able to draft a foolproof definition of a “reasonably diligent search” (remember that the infringer would have a serious financial incentive not to find you). So the Copyright Office proposed registries.

Q: Why registries?
A: Because a search of registries would allow the infringer to legally claim he had made a “reasonably diligent search.”

Q: And the problem with that is?
A: You can’t find a picture in a registry if it’s not there. Any picture – published or unpublished, professional or personal – that hasn’t been registered could therefore be orphaned by a successful orphan works defense - even if the artist was alive and otherwise managing his copyrights.

Q: But if you do become aware of an infringement, you can always claim a “reasonable fee” from the user.
A: Another Pandora’s Box because:

- Infringements can occur anytime anywhere in the world; therefore
- You would have to search every publication, every website, everywhere - on a regular basis - to see if anything you’ve ever done has been infringed.
- This would be an impossible task - but
- Even if you did find an infringement, you’d still have to
- Locate the infringer and get him to respond; and
- While the infringer would only have to make a “reasonably diligent search” to find you,
-You would have to make an absolutely successful search to find him.
- Then, if you were able to track him down and get him to respond, you’d have to
- Settle for whatever he was willing or able to pay you; or
- Take him to Federal Court; but remember
- If the court accepts the infringer’s claim that he made a reasonably diligent effort to find you,
- You’d get no more than what he was willing or able to pay you in the first place; but
-You’d be out-of-pocket for legal expenses; and
- There’d be no limit to the amount of damages and legal fees the infringer could get from you in a countersuit.


Q: But what if you do sue an infringer and win? Then can’t the court award you full costs, including a reasonable attorney’s fee?
A: In theory, yes. But here’s how a full-time litigator, advising us in 2006, said it would happen in real life:

“Under current law, infringement cases follow two scenarios:

“Scenario One: If a copyright owner has registered his copyright, he can get statutory damages and attorneys fees. As a result, it is relatively easy to find a contingency fee lawyer to take these cases. (That’s because the copyright owner doesn’t have to pay the lawyer; the infringer does). In addition, the copyright owner usually finds that he gets more in settlement than he pays in legal fees, if he decides to hire an hourly-rate lawyer.

“Scenario Two: If a copyright owner has NOT registered his copyright, he can only get actual damages. In these cases, it is usually impossible to find a contingency fee lawyer [because in these cases, the copyright owner will have to pay - and may not be able to]. Moreover, it is often not wise for the copyright owner to litigate these cases anyway, because the settlement value is so small.

“Under the orphan works legislation, ALL infringement scenarios are, as a practical matter, Scenario Two.”

Q: But the Copyright Office says that infringers who act in good faith need “certainty” that they won’t be penalized for using an “orphaned” work:


“Most [commenters to the Orphan Works Study] agreed that statutory damages and attorneys fees should not be available [to copyright owners] because those remedies create the most uncertainty in the minds of users (emphasis added).” - Page 7/Orphan Works Report
http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/orphan-report.pdf


A: Maybe so, but under this bill

-You would never have certainty because you’d never know if, when or where your work has been infringed.
- Yet the infringer would be guaranteed the kind of certainty the law would deny you.


Q: The Copyright Office says that user certainty is “essential to encouraging the use of the [orphaned] work.” -Page 7/Orphan Works Report
A: The issue of certainty for the user/infringer is the lynchpin of the whole Orphan Works issue, so let’s take it step-by-step:


1. Congress can’t pass a law to make you register your work or put copyright symbols on it because these formalities would violate the obligations and commitments of the United States under the international Berne Copyright Convention:

Berne/Article 5(2) “The enjoyment and the exercise of these rights shall not be subject to any formality (emphasis added).” http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/5.html


2. So because Congress can’t impose formalities on you, the Copyright Office crafted a recommendation that would expose your work to infringement if you didn’t impose formalities on yourself.

3. They say this “limitation on remedies” is necessary to guarantee “certainty” to the good faith infringer of your work.

4. But uncertainty is the only mechanism the law gives you to protect your work from thieves.

5. There is no Copyright Bureau of Investigation; no Copyright Police Force.

6. You are responsible for policing your own copyrights – and penalties for infringement are the only weapon the law gives you.

7. Fact: most creative work is never registered with the Copyright Office and most infringers know it. So

8. If an infringer wants to rip off your work, he can guess that a.) you may never find out about it; and b.) it probably wasn’t registered anyway.

9. He may guess correctly but – he can’t be sure – and this uncertainty is your key safeguard against unjust infringement, because

10. If an bad actor guesses wrong, he’ll be liable under current law for statutory damages of up to $150,000 per infringement, plus attorneys fees.

11. This is a powerful incentive for a thief not to risk stealing our work.

12. So it turns out that in the real world, uncertainty in the mind of a bad actor is the only weapon you have to protect your copyright. Remove that uncertainty and you remove the only realistic safeguard the law provides.


Let’s say that again: Without uncertainty, thieves can reasonably gamble that their thefts may never be detected, the work they steal won’t be registered, the owners of the stolen property will never find them and – if once in a while they do get caught – they can simply say the property had no name on it when they found it and dare you to sue them. From that point on, the risk will be all yours.

The Dog that Didn’t Bark In 2006, visual artists banded together and flooded Congressional offices with faxes protesting the harm the Orphan Works Act would do to professional artists.

Lost in the swamp of debate over “reasonable searches” and “reasonable fees,” no one stopped to think that the bill had been written so broadly that the inclusion of unpublished work would expose even personal and private work - such as sketches, diaries, family photos, home videos, etc. to infringement. This issue was the dog that didn’t bark. The January 29 2007 exchange with the attorney from the Copyright Office finally woke the dog:


Carson: Copyright owners will have to register their images with private registries.
Holland: But what if I exercise my exclusive right of copyright and choose not to register?
Carson: If you want to go ahead and create an orphan work, be my guest!

This radical expansion of the public domain makes this legislation much more than an issue of copyright infringement. Its unintended consequences would amount to a violation of private property and potentially, of privacy itself.

In a 2005 paper submitted to the Copyright Office, legal scholars Jane Ginsburg and Paul Goldstein warned that Orphan Works legislation must precisely define the scope of its mandate or fail to uphold our country’s commitment to international law and copyright-related treaties:


“[T]he diversity of [orphan works] responses highlights the fundamental importance of precisely defining the category of ‘orphan’ works. The broader the category, or the lower the bar to making the requisite showing of due diligence, the greater the risk of inconsistency with our international obligations to uphold authors’ exclusive rights under copyright. Compliance with Berne/TRIPs is required by more than punctilio; these rules embody an international consensus of national norms that in turn rest on long experience with balancing the rights of authors and their various beneficiaries, and the public. Thus, in urging compliance with these technical-appearing rules, we are also urging compliance with longstanding practices that have passed the test of time (emphasis added).” -Item 1/page 1 Orphan Works Reply Comments http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/comments/reply/OWR0107-Ginsburg-Goldstein.pdf


It may sound absurd to argue that the unintended consequences of this legislation will raise privacy issues. But the absurdity arises from the Copyright Office’s inversion of basic copyright law. On page 14 of the Orphan Works Report, the authors write:


“If our recommendation resolves users’ concerns in a satisfactory way, it will likely be a comprehensive solution to the orphan works situation (emphasis added).” http://www.copyright.gov/orphan/orphan-report.pdf

Yet any law that permits users to commercialize the private property of others cannot be “comprehensive” if it “prejudices the legitimate interests of the copyright holders.” See Article 13/The Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS) http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/trips_e/t_agm3_e.htm#1

This includes unpublished work and personal expressions as well as works intended for commercial use. Authors’ rights are exclusive. Public interest cannot compel anyone – artist or private citizen – to publish his or her work. So by what right of eminent domain can Congress assert a sweeping right to let others publish it for them?

The Copyright Office has stated that they’ll regard their recommendation as “satisfactory” if it makes millions of copyrights, no matter how valuable, available to users, no matter how worthy, under a system that would introduce permanent uncertainty into the markets of professional creators and into the lives of ordinary citizens. By placing the wants of users over the rights of rightsholders, the Copyright Office would invert the simple logic of copyright law, which in 2006, one artist expressed very clearly this way:

“If you find a creative work, you may not know who created it, but you know you didn’t.”

Despite 127 pages of the Orphan Works Report, you need only common sense to tell you this: The primary goal of copyright law is not to make creators’ work available to others. If it were, there’d be no need for copyright law at all: everything would be free for anyone to use. Copyright law exists primarily to protect the property rights of creators and secondarily, to extend the benefits of the creator’s work to the public. It does this by defining specific, limited exceptions to the creator’s exclusive license. In doing so, the law promotes the useful arts and provides certainty to users and creators alike. Invert the law and you invert the only way it can benefit society.

- Brad Holland © 2008 with additional research by Cynthia Turner, for the Illustrators’ Partnership

The author has given his permission to post or forward this article in its entirety to any interested party.

Brad Holland is a self-taught artist and writer whose work has appeared in Time, Vanity Fair, The New Yorker, Rolling Stone, the New York Times and other publications. He is a member of the Society of Illustrators Hall of Fame. His satire on the art business, “Express Yourself, It’s Later Than You Think” was first published in The Atlantic Monthly http://www.newyorkartworld.com/commentary/holland.html
“First Things About Secondary Rights” appeared in The Columbia Journal of Law and the Arts, published by the Columbia University School of Law http://weblog.ipcentral.info/holland_ColumbiaLaw.pdf

Cynthia Turner is a certified medical illustrator and a Fellow of the Association of Medical Illustrators (AMI). She is a founding member and Board member of the Illustrators’ Partnership of America, and a member of the Society of Illustrators. She creates original illustrations for medical publishers, pharmaceutical companies, biotechnology firms and their agencies.

DarkePhazeGraphiX
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 6:24:23 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 4/15/2008
Posts: 133
More Info and there has been an update.


All ARTISTs Need to be Protected!

Listen to this Interview:
http://www.sellyourtvconceptnow.com/orphan.html

Orphan Update E-mail List
Brad Holland
Illustrator's Partnership
www.IllustratorsPartnership.org
illustratorspartnership@cnymail.com to get on the Orphan Works e-mail list
mariannegilliand
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 6:42:25 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 4/22/2007
Posts: 328
You can go to this .gov site and watch the actual sub-committee hearing via realplayer broadcast.

http://judiciary.house.gov/oversight.aspx?ID=427

*warning, have a good strong cup of coffee before viewing,may induce sleepiness. Gets interesting about 30 or so minutes in when the Rep from the textile industry testifies.
HahpiStuff
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 6:44:23 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 3/29/2007
Posts: 1,152
Location: The 740
this is just so scary, for all of us!

I would really like to know what someone at Zazzle thinks
J_Gracey
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 7:40:58 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 12
Location: Orillia
This is incredibly scary stuff. Thanks for the links.

I am not an American (Canadian) but from the first mention of this orphaned works bill I could see that this would effect artists the world over, not just the American artists, even though it's an American bill.

If a user can't find the owner of a work, how would they know if it's American, European, Canadian, etc. In listening to the interview (first time I've heard it) the very same points were brought up...along with an awful lot of points that never entered my head. Like the number of commercial registries - at the time of the interview there was nothing that limited the number of registries. For an artist, this would mean you'd have to register every work with at 90% (or your best safety would be 100%) of the total commercial registries - that's a nightmare. Even if they charged $1/image, and let's say you only had a portfolio of 200 total images...for one registry house you'd pay $200...if there were 1000 registry houses....

And if someone takes your work, and registers it themselves before you do?
HSM2007
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 8:46:36 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 7/31/2007
Posts: 517
HahpiStuff wrote:
There has been so much chatter about the Orphan Works Act lately and it made me wonder...

If this act passes it will not only put many artists in a crunch, but also all of the POD sites as well, including this one.

Has Zazzle or IS Zazzle planning on doing or saying anything to oppose this act?


I'll be brazen here ... why would Zazzle do or say anything to oppose this act? The way I understand the proposed legislation, all the POD's are in a position to actually profit from this.

Again as I understand this the crux of the problem for creators is the exact thing that the supporters of the legiglation are obscuring by spending so much time discussing really old images and the like.

The simple issue for the creator IS ownership will no longer be AUTOMATIC as it is under current law. The ONLY way to own your creation will be to register it. That is a problem. Before you can create a product on a POD you will have to register your image. How many of you have even thought of doing that?

Currently, the vast majority of visual copywritten works are not formally registered at all. Just like the little TM after a trade mark the copyright statement on your work is a statement of intent ... the current law supports, protects and upholds that intent up to the point of being able to sew for damages. You have to be registered to sew for damages.

The vast majority of the historical materials supporters want to insist this bill adresses don't even have any sort of copyright statement on them at all, but the current law protects them as if they did. That is the issue the supporters are focusing on ending ... BUT ... they are either not admitting or diliberately trying to obscure that fact that it ends all proof of ownership by statement of copyright intent as we have now.

One would have to be very naive to think that once this copyright by intent is gone and only formal registry of materials constitutes ownership that there won't be a run on materials and images that are presently on the internet. Already it's been noted that one of Bill Gate's concerns in photo images is looking for concessions for protections under new legislation.

So with a vast pool of images already on their servers ... why wouldn't POD's take a crack at snapping up the big sellers and registering them? They certainly have the cash to register more of them than most of the contributors to their sites. What is stopping them other than their own ethical standards?

Sorry folks I don't have much faith in the ethical standards of many companies or corporations in the world today. If their is an oppportunity to increase profits ... it will be done ... no matter who it hurts.

I fully agree with folks that say there is going to be a feeding frenzy on images and materials online that are not formally registered ... which is most of it.

I know my stuff ain't all that great ... but it is the best I can do and it IS mine.
HSM2007
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 9:23:09 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 7/31/2007
Posts: 517
I'll just say a little more ...

I keep reading the support for the legislation and the 2 big examples they keep tossing out are these ...

1. Works of historical significance.

2. The family that wants to get a family heirloom photo redone.

The second I think is inane. I'll gladly try to touch up or fix anyone's old family photo for them. I don't really know how but for a professional to refuse to do anything in that situation seems a little silly to me. I can't imagine that the photographer if even alive would get their panties in a twist and if they did ... they are just being an *.

The first ... certianly there is a better solution ... like some sort of an exception or modification to the current laws for historically significnat materials and materials over say 100 years old??? Does the whole system really need to be changed???

No it only needs to be changed if the things they don't want to admit that the legislation does are the REAL reasons they want the legislation passed. Like creating opportunities for private entities now to make millions out of registering things that for years haven't had to be registered by outsourcing a function of our Goverment that we paid taxes for them to do. Will they close the US Copyright office and fire all the employees too ... like the person speaking out in defense of this legislation?

I guess this comes under the heading of jobs creation legislation and growing the economy.
J_Gracey
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:03:00 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 12
Location: Orillia
Works of historical significance...I understand the reasons for this where no copyright exists or where copyright has expired, but even historical works can be copyrighted where the copyright has been passed on by inheritance and if the heir has held onto the copyright.

Although I wouldn't call my father's photographs "works of historical significance", there are a few that are earning me money (I have inherited his work and copyright); these are now my copyright images and I would hate to see these pass into the public domain because they are old. Like most photographer's today, the cost to register all these images individually (as well as my own) would be exhorbitant, probably outweighing my earnings by a fair bit.

I hope (though I've no idea it might be worth checking out) that sites where one posts images for sale or sharing would stick to their own terms of service as posted, though because they always include the right to change or end the terms that could be problematic if they change their terms without giving us time to remove our work.

I could see a large number of photographers and artists unwilling to bear the expense pulling out of sales sites...possibly even pulling every single image from every single site. (That's a worst case scenario I think.)

On the other hand, what about those of us who have registered our copyrights (I've done a couple, but it seemed a waste at the time so I stopped doing) If you've already paid to register, you are still going to have to pay the private registries. That's nuts.

But, I don't think it's the responsibility of the sites since they don't own any of the images. If we want to protect our images, we (each artist) have to take the responsibility. And it's true that they in fact could profit from the bill, rather than find it a deterrent.

Well, at least inititally. They can sell the images themselves, but they are open to copyright infringement of those same appropriated images, just as we are.

While I agree there are plenty of unscrupulous sites out there (including many "big businesses") I think some might realize if they used images from contributors (particularly if those contributors had already made sales of those images) it would be difficult to claim it was an orphaned work.

It doesn't matter how you look at it, it's a bad deal for artists, and it could be a bad deal for sites that rely on contributors, because if the contributors aren't offered some measure of protection, a lot of them could pull out, leaving nothing but empty shops.
HSM2007
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:32:34 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 7/31/2007
Posts: 517
J_Gracey wrote:

I could see a large number of photographers and artists unwilling to bear the expense pulling out of sales sites...possibly even pulling every single image from every single site. (That's a worst case scenario I think.)
....
It doesn't matter how you look at it, it's a bad deal for artists, and it could be a bad deal for sites that rely on contributors, because if the contributors aren't offered some measure of protection, a lot of them could pull out, leaving nothing but empty shops.


Well call me a ninny ... that would be polite compared to some things I've been called ... but I've started pulling out and so has at least one other. But she is a little more honorable than I am ... she is doing it in protest.

I'm just doing it to protect myself until I can more formally do so. I've cleaned out 2 stores so far.

Like I say, I'm not saying my stuff is great but it is MINE and I want to keep it that way.
totallypainted
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 11:33:02 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 397
Location: JUST MARRIED!!!!
HSM2007 wrote:


I'll be brazen here ... why would Zazzle do or say anything to oppose this act? The way I understand the proposed legislation, all the POD's are in a position to actually profit from this.




Not unless enough contributors delete their designs or close down shops completely.

HSM2007 wrote:
Like I say, I'm not saying my stuff is great but it is MINE and I want to keep it that way.


They are greatSmile
HSM2007
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 1:12:59 PM

Groups: Member

Joined: 7/31/2007
Posts: 517
totallypainted wrote:

They are greatSmile


Thank you very much Ms. Painted Smile

Folks I just can't stop thinking about this. I posted this thought elsewhere but I thought I should repeat it here too …

For those of you who aren’t enraged about this issue yet … think about this.

The people we have representing us in Washington, and most visibly on the current campaign trail, are far more affraid of upsetting or even just slightly offending people in this country who want to own assault weapons and hand guns …

than they are concerned at all about taking away your right to simply own what you create.

It’s one thing to register a creation to have further protection and rights under the law as is the case now.

But seriously … why should anyone be COERSED into paying a fee to simply have that right in the eyes of the law in the first place?

THIS LEGISLATION IS ABSURD.
J_Gracey
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 1:27:46 PM

Groups: Member

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 12
Location: Orillia
I'm not sure if enraged is the word I'd use, but it's pretty darn closeAngry

One of the things that flabberghasts me about governments and their policies (all of them, not just US) is when they make these ridiculous decisions they consider only their own countries, and not what affect it may have on everyone else.

Maybe in the last century it was less of an issue, but with the technology available to almost everybody today, and in particular the internet, it's definitely something that bears thought.

Helloooo out there...this affects artists everywhere, not just Americans. Therefore, all artists should be able to lobby against this. Unfortunately, I'd suspect if we aren't american citizens our protests are falling on deaf ears.






@HSM: indeed, they are very creative. I like the emotikey illustrations. Well done.
HahpiStuff
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 4:37:11 PM

Groups: Member

Joined: 3/29/2007
Posts: 1,152
Location: The 740
I could see zazzle, cafe press, printfection and all of them falling to their knees if this thing passes. I dont know about all of you but I dont think that with as many images as I have that I could afford to register all of them, I'd be in the poor house faster than trying to fill my tank completely full of gas!

I dont think a lot of contributors could afford to have their work online and if the contributors dwindle, so does the whole POD network system.

It just sounds like a lose-lose for everyone but those companiesSad
HSM2007
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2008 6:35:22 PM

Groups: Member

Joined: 7/31/2007
Posts: 517
Thank you very much J Gracey ... I have to say I don't think there is anyone more amazed than me when folks say nice things about the little things I do.

Been feelin' real down about this Orphan stuff ... like Shannon I won't be able to really afford to keep doing this either if the legislation passes ... maybe a few images now and then. But not like I had hoped. Much will disappear from my pages.

When things like this happen I really get to thinkin' about my younger days and the people I admired ... I really was a hippie born a little too late ... I was actually called one a few times ... but this song always comes back in my head ... from those days ...

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/v/various+artists/john+lennon+imagine_20143780.html
J_Gracey
Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2008 3:14:49 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 12
Location: Orillia
One thought that comes to mind is a co-op registry maintained and run by artists. You pay a yearly fee (to keep the registry site running and paid for and whatever admin costs are required) to register whatever images you want to register during that year. With enough artists as co-owners you could have a manageable fee. Seems to me a registry owned and operated by artists (particularly if it's got a lot of members) is likely to be in the top 10 of searches for those searching registries for copyright info.
HSM2007
Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2008 7:34:37 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 7/31/2007
Posts: 517
J_Gracey wrote:
One thought that comes to mind is a co-op registry maintained and run by artists. You pay a yearly fee (to keep the registry site running and paid for and whatever admin costs are required) to register whatever images you want to register during that year. With enough artists as co-owners you could have a manageable fee. Seems to me a registry owned and operated by artists (particularly if it's got a lot of members) is likely to be in the top 10 of searches for those searching registries for copyright info.


Great thought. Let's get a server ... I'm all in! Does anyone know how they search a data base like that? Ya got a good mind for positioning in advance there Ms. Gracey. I nominate you for CEO!

Question - The private regestries ... do they have to be somehow qualified by and registered with the government under the proposed legislation?

Crazy thought ... could a POD qualify as a registry in and of itself?

TDSwhite
Posted: Saturday, April 26, 2008 7:49:12 AM

Groups: Member

Joined: 10/23/2005
Posts: 188
Location: Wedding Invitation Postage
My thoughts are whoever wants this passed already has their hands in the money jar.
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
Print this topic
RSS Feed
Normal
Threaded