Copyrights and Trademarks
ShirtVisions
Posted: Thursday, July 26, 2012 12:10:19 PM
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Joined: 5/15/2012
Posts: 12
Hi everyone,
I decided to start a post concerning copyrights and trademarks and I sincerely hope I am not stepping out of bounds on this. There are quite a few forum threads that bring up the issue for discussion, but none that really answered the questions with clarity for me. So I went out on a limb and decided to do a great deal of research of my own, as all of you should do, and decided to share what I found along with my interpretation.

If you would prefer to just cut to the chase, go to the links I listed below and learn what you need to know.

I may be new to Zazzle, but not to creating art or the copyright and trademark laws all artists should learn and know. I am also NOT a Lawyer, so DO NOT take this as LEGAL ADVICE. I am only sharing information I dug up and my "interpretation" of that information to unravel the confusion in my own mind. Take it or leave it as you wish. I only hope it sheds light on a subject all of us, as artists, should know as well as we know the tools of our trade.

Now, before I get into my "interpretation" of the law, all of you should keep in mind that regaurdless of what the law states, or how any of us interpret it, what Zazzle will allow you to print through them is an entirely different matter. If they demonstrate they're not going to so much as argue with big industries or their Lawyers concerning copyright or trademark issues, then that is their business. If you want to argue with Zazzle about it, may I refer you to the part of their agreement and terms that states they can drop you from their website without reason. It also says you will support Zazzle in these types of matters. If they decide they are not going to print certain images, that's the end of it. If you want to print what they do not, go start your own company and print whatever you want. Then you can respond to "Cease and desist" letters in whatever manner you choose. Make sure you have access to a good Lawyer to help you deal with the legal issues of butting heads with wealthy corporations.

Speaking of, Are there any Copyright/Trademark Lawyers in the house who can clarify any issues I may have overlooked or misinterpreted?



THIS IS QUOTED FROM LAWMART.COM http://www.lawmart.com/forms/difference.htm
(Quoting for the purpose of educating others and listing the original source of information is not a violation of copyright law.)

CLOTHING ITEMS

When it comes to copyright v. trademark, we get more questions about clothing than anything else. Here are a few guidelines:

1. Anything you silk screen or otherwise display prominently on the front or back of a shirt, top, cap or hat is generally considered artwork, and therefore covered by copyright. In fact, if you send a photo of a clothing item to the U.S. Trademark Office showing your design, logo or slogan prominently displayed on the front or back, they will refuse to register it as a trademark.

2. To qualify as a trademark, your logo or slogan must be used as the brand of the clothing item itself. In other words, your logo or slogan must be used the way clothing brands are typically used and displayed on clothing, namely, sewn into a waistband, collar, hem or pocket, or applied to a label, sticker or tag, and NOT in a way that dominates the appearance of the clothing item.

3. The caveat, of course, is that when your design, logo or slogan is regarded as artwork - even though it can be protected by copyright - the protection only extends to the artistic configuration used. To put it more bluntly, if you have a slogan or name, copyright law can protect the artistic way you display it, but the text itself is NOT protected. Copyright law does not cover names, words or short phrases.

4. The only way to protect a name, word, short phrase or other text, is to register it as a trademark. But this means that you have to change the way you use the mark from an artistic display to a brand name usage.

5. Yes, it is possible to register a design, logo, name or phrase under both copyright law and trademark law, so long as you use it in two different ways and you do it consistently. Keeping the two usages of the same design or text at the same time is not an easy task, and you can end up compromising your rights under copyright or trademark, or both, very easily if you aren't careful.

(END OF QUOTE)


My "interpretation" of this and the written law (find links below) is though you can copyright "artistic usage" as a whole unto itself (ie. a design, photograph, printed artwork, poems and songs, and books), you cannot copyright the names, words, phrases or common symbols within the whole while restricting its use from everyone else. You can only copyright the artistic nature in which you "display" those names, words, phrases and symbols.

A Trademark is the signature of a company that is doing business in the marketplace whether it is a word, phrase, symbol, number or combination thereof. Trademark laws were designed to protect the "signature" of one company to make it distinguishable from others, and to prevent others from creating anything similar as to cause confusion between the two.

A "Trademark" is the "Brand name and/or image" afixed as a label or tag to the product the company is applying its signature too. For instance, N-i-k-e and the familiar checkmark are a unique trademaked name and logo of a company and their "Brand." However, they do not hold exlusive rights to the "artistic use" of a checkmark as long as it is not identical to N-i-k-e's, or used as a "Label." You can print your own "Artistic" style of a checkmark on a T-shirt or anything else. A checkmark is a commonly used symbol which cannot be copyrighted, and N-i-k-e does not have exclusive rights to restrict it's "Artistic usage" in general, only it's "Brand usage." Trademark law was created to protect "Brand usage" to distinguish one compay's logo from another, not the "artistic usage" from one artist to another. That falls under copyright law.

Also "Just do it" is a commonly used phrase that in of itself cannot be copyrighted. I heard my parents and my grandparents barking this at me on a regular basis when I was a child long before N-i-k-e "adopted" it. Even if it is legitimately trademarked and N-i-k-e were using it "within a Label," they do not hold exclusive rights to prevent "artistic usage" printed on t-shirts (or anything) by anyone else as long as you do not make reference to N-i-k-e in the process.

To the best of my knowledge, the only time you can print the Trademarked name and logo of any company without their permission is if it is done in a parody, a form of critisim, or reporting "newsworthy" material.

Another example would be FRUIT OF THE LOOM and their "cluster of fruit" image on the label. They do not hold exclusive rights to restrict the "Artistic usage" of a cluster of fruit. They do have exclusive rights to use that "artistic" design as their Trademarked label preventing other companys from applying it as a label of their own, but it does not restrict artists from printing an apple, a bannana, grapes, or even a cluster of fruit as long as it is not identical or make reference to FROOT OF THE LOOM.

"Artwork" displayed prominantly on clothing, or phrases used by a famous person in a song or movie have no Trademark legitimacy unless they use it as a "Label" on a product identifying their company actively doing business in the marketplace.

Simply printing any phrase on a t-shirt or singing it in a song, or adding it to the story within a book, does not make it a legitimate "Trademark" you can hold hostage from everyone else, you have to apply it as a label and it is only restricted from other companies using it as a label. Printing "Just do it" (or any other phrase) on the front of a T-shirt is not a "Label," and is legitimate and legal for anyone to use artistically in thier own format as long as you do not copy the "Artistic usage" or ASSOCIATE IT WITH any perticular company or person who may be using it "within their label." Don't make your version look like N-i-k-e's version.

As for photography and the rights to photograph and sell the image of a famous sports figure wearing the N-i-k-e logo within the photo, or a bad to the bone sports car at a car show, or any other photo containing a copyrighted or trademarked image, you should consult an attorney before sending it to print. The Photographers within sporting venues are usually licensed and received permission from the venue, the team, and probably the individual player, all demanding a share of the profits generated by the photographer. However, a similar photo taken in public by anyone may be sold without discretion to news organizations, but it doesn't mean you can turn it into a poster to sell on a national retail level.

Once again, This is just my "interpretation" from what I have learned. If you have questions concerning the legal right to print a design, consult a lawyer. If you are concerned whether or not Zazzle will print a "questionable design" ask the Zazzle management team through an email to get a specific "Yes you can" or "NO you may not." If they aren't willing to take the time to say yes or no, make your own calculated decision. Asking anyone on these forums who are not professional lawyers and do not speak for Zazzle management, is risky at best, and if you have a shred of doubt you're better off not doing it until you get an answer from someone who is qualified to give the answer.

Here's an idea. If you, as an artist, create designs around an image that is questionable or Zazzle will not print because of copyright and trademark issues, contact the organization who holds the copyright or trademark, tell them you are a designer and ask if they would be willing to accept submissions of your design for thier permission to sell on the open market. If you get permission, maybe Zazzle will allow it in your shop alone, while everyone else is scratching their head wondering, "why do they get away with it but I can't?" Sure they'll expect a commision, but if it opens the door to a million customers and you only get a dollar per product? Do I really need to do the math? If they say no then move on to the next design. And so on, and so forth.

Hopefully that wasn't more confusing than helpful.

Below you will find links to U.S. government agencies and the laws directly from the horses mouth. I suggest you read and study them for yourself.

Vital resources

Copyright law - http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
Refer to:
chapter 1 - sections 102, 106, 107, and 113
Chapter 2 - section 201 (still read it all)
Chapter 5 - sections 501 - 508
Chapter 13 - This chapter is about Design, However, it does not specifically state whether it is "graphic Design" of an artistic nature, or technical drawings for a mechanical device or plans for a house. I think it's for the Latter more than the former.

Trademark law -
http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/index.jsp - Read "The Basic facts about trademarks" PDF
http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/process/TMIN.jsp - Watch video's 1 and 6

Good luck to all of you. Idea
NuMil3Design
Posted: Thursday, July 26, 2012 6:49:20 PM

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Here's a good reference on the "fair use" principle of US copyright law.
ShirtVisions
Posted: Friday, July 27, 2012 8:14:15 AM
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Great link. Thanks NuMil3Design. That was informative.

So when it comes to fair use and parodies, you're skating on thin ice. Again if you are into the practice of creating humorous, critical, or informative works that are based on someone elses copyrighted material, you should have an atttorney you can consult with before you send your work to print.

Personally, as an artist I don't want the headache of "playing in the grey zone." Most artist who design for T-shirts and other products where the area of print is limited, only delve into words and phrases, which no one can legally copyright as their own, only the artistic nature in which they represented it. However, when it involves a full definition of a humorous word that is uncommon, you've crossed over into "the grey zone"

For the continuing discussion concerning trademarks, I'm surprised at how many people throughout the internet don't seem to understand what a trademark really is. Again, this is my "interpretation" based on what I have researched within the law. If you print a checkmark on the front of a T-shirt that is unlike that of N-I-K-E, you are NOT in violation of Trademark law. If you copy the N-I-K-E checkmark, you are in violation of copyright law. If you print "Just do it" in your own artistic manner on the front or back of a T-shirt, you are NOT in violation of trademark law. If you copy N-I-K-E's version, you are in violation of copyright law. You ARE in violation of trademark law if you try to use any version of a name or symbol already in use on another company's label to be placed within your label that will create confusion between the two. Even though a company may claim and register a name or symbol as a trademark, to be legitimate, it must be IN USE AS SUCH.

Wouldn't it also be safe to argue that it is unlawful if a company has declared a trademark, but instead of using it as precribed by law, use it in a manner as to prevent its legal use by others in any manner? Isn't it against the law for anyone to tell another they cannot do what they legally can? Isn't it malpractice for a lawyer to send a cease and desist letter in an effort to stop people from printing what they have a legal right to print? I think it is. But don't take my word for it, because I'm not a lawyer.

Though your "artistic usage" of a design on a t-shirt may be legal to use, take into consideration the "TAGS" you use to describe your work. On one hand, If a name or phrase is in fact legitimately being used on a label, wouldn't a "TAG" be considered an electronic label? Sure, why not? They call them "TAGS." The "TAG" on your shirt is a label. This is where I think people on Zazzle are running into problems. Though you may have the "Artistic use" right to print an image, word, or phrase, if you use someone elses Trademark listed in with your tags, you may be in violation of trademark law in that sense. I have yet to see where anyone has argued against it in a court of law. Hopefully Zazzle would give you fair warning and an effort to correct the problem.

On the other hand, though tags may be viewed as an electronic label, it is not technically afixed to a product as defined in the law. Neither is a product title or it's web page description. Electronic "Tags" appear to me as nothing more than descriptive words and phrases (which cannot be copyrighted) for the purpose of data feeds into search engines to produce search results, and not as electronic labels that violate trademark laws. Using trademarks as a means to prevent other artists from advertising their legitimate Art seems as though it violates "Fair use laws" and a company or individual's right to advertise their products containing art with the same "descriptive" words and phrases that may be part of another companies trademark. Personally, I view "Tags" as "advertising descriptions," not as a "Company label" that falls to Trademark restrictions, especially concerning common names and phrases. But that is my oppinion.

As stated before, on Zazzle, the final word falls on Zazzle as to what they will accept on their website. In your own company and on your own website, you have to decide whether or not you want to take the time to question and challenge those who are challenging your right to freely advertise and describe your products within the public domain.

If anyone else has any relevent links to legitimate information concerning this topic, please list it here.
Again, it is very important for all of us as artists to understand the laws we are subject too, not just in preventing us from infringing on the rights of others, but to protect ourselves from those who may infringe upon us.
ShirtVisions
Posted: Saturday, July 28, 2012 6:41:33 PM
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Links for Information on Trademark laws

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/trademark
http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/what-trademark-covers
http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/using-trademarks-others

Here are a few links I've come across that you should read as well.
Aparently trademark law is a fairly ambiguous legislation across the board. The Supreme court has determined the right of free speech and expression in NON commercial activities, however, have determined there are a different set of vaige rules in commercial activity that are still being argued even today.

As I have stated before, and as the information I have found states, Trademarks are the identifying "signature" of a company who produces goods or services. However, if a company has adopted and registered a particular phrase as part of their company signature, such as "Just do it," the only way to honestly print your own artistic rendition on a shirt (or anything else) while upholding the claim of "Artistic usage" that is not infringing upon or leading people to believe you are associated with the trademark holder, would be to create your own "signature" (trademark) that identifies you, the artist (or your company) as the legal copyright holder of the artwork being printed. Sign your work as your own in the lower right corner (or anywhere you prefer just as long as it accompanies the artwork) so there is no confusion about who is producing and distributing it. Eliminate the confusion, and you will have a legitimate defense, hopefully.
DogsOnly
Posted: Saturday, July 28, 2012 7:06:45 PM
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Joined: 5/11/2009
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Seriously most of this just doesn't matter here. Just because the law might allow it doesn't mean Zazzle will. Here is the guide for success at Zazzle:

If you have to argue why it is legal, don't do it.
ShirtVisions
Posted: Sunday, July 29, 2012 5:36:21 PM
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DogsOnly wrote:
Seriously most of this just doesn't matter here. Just because the law might allow it doesn't mean Zazzle will. Here is the guide for success at Zazzle:

If you have to argue why it is legal, don't do it.


Yes you are correct. As I stated at the beginning of the first post, what Zazzle will or will not print is up to them regardless of what any designer thinks about their legal right. I have yet to find an "off limits" list, just a few announcements. I don't speak for Zazzle, but I would venture to say that if they receive a cease and desist letter because a design is in question, their not going to waste time or resources questioning or arguing it's legality, they're going to yank it and move on with life. If I were in their position, I'd probably do the same thing.

However, I will always encourage others to do what is right. If you created a work of art that does not infringe on anothers right within the law, but are accused as such, you should always stand behind your work and ARGUE your right to print your creation, but that doesn't mean Zazzle will back you up.

There are too many people in the world trying to stifle the artistic expression of others, especially wealthy business artists trying to corner a market by subverting the free expression of others while useing legal action as their method of influence. If you choose to hold yourself back artistically because you're afraid to argue your legal rights, thats' an unfortunate loss to any civilized society. If you cannot defend yourself in any court of law against an accusation without the burden of severe financial expenses (which is the case), that's a trajedy. However, it is understandable and I truely feel sorry for anyone who is artistically stiffled because they are bullied by the rich through an expensive legal system. It shouldn't be this way, but reality is reality.

The point of starting this post is not to argue about the law, but to provide and share educational resources and information for the purpose of understanding it so we all can have that sense of freedom to create without fear. Not all artist limit theirselves to Zazzle alone. If you don't understand the limits of the law so you can effectively work within those limits, you're just holding yourself back as an artist because of it.

Lets say you come up with a cool phrase (or word) no one else has used before, and you create a cool design around it. Lets say it becomes a little popular and you make some money off it on Zazzle. Then a year or two down the road, a wealthy corporation decides they like the phrase enough to turn it into a slogan for their company, hire an artist to create their own artistic design, then they trademark it and hire overpaid lawyers to send out cease and desist letters to everyone who is using it in the slightest way, including you and Zazzle. Now Zazzle has yanked your original phrase and design because of it. What do you do now? Tuck your tail between your legs and hide under the sofa? Or ARGUE about it?
VintagerieEphemera
Posted: Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:33:05 PM
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ShirtVisions wrote:
DogsOnly wrote:
Seriously most of this just doesn't matter here. Just because the law might allow it doesn't mean Zazzle will. Here is the guide for success at Zazzle:

If you have to argue why it is legal, don't do it.

Lets say you come up with a cool phrase (or word) no one else has used before, and you create a cool design around it. Lets say it becomes a little popular and you make some money off it on Zazzle. Then a year or two down the road, a wealthy corporation decides they like the phrase enough to turn it into a slogan for their company, hire an artist to create their own artistic design, then they trademark it and hire overpaid lawyers to send out cease and desist letters to everyone who is using it in the slightest way, including you and Zazzle. Now Zazzle has yanked your original phrase and design because of it. What do you do now? Tuck your tail between your legs and hide under the sofa? Or ARGUE about it?


This is why it's so important to regularly register your works with your country's Copyright Office. A little inexpensive prevention goes a long way.
Maddison Lane
Posted: Saturday, August 04, 2012 9:36:47 PM
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Joined: 9/25/2010
Posts: 6
VintagerieEphemera wrote:
[quote=ShirtVisions]
This is why it's so important to regularly register your works with your country's Copyright Office. A little inexpensive prevention goes a long way.


You don't HAVE to register your work to copyright it -- by the very virtue of creating an original work, you own the copyright. If someone else -- including and especially a "big name corporation" -- later uses and expands upon your work for their own profit, you can go after them by establishing that you were the original author -- typically, as simple as demonstrating that you created, displayed and/or sold your work before they did. We actually did so successfully with a design we sold here on Zazzle; it became popular, a "big name" company found it, and they decided to use it (almost exactly as-is, to boot) for their own products. It took us 9 days to have them remove every single product bearing our original idea that they were advertising in their stores. And while we never did see any remuneration for what they did (we weren't interested in pursuing the matter any further), we successfully protected our rights with nothing more than a simple, typed demand letter explaining the situation. No attorneys, no copyright registrations, no expenses beyond the ink and the paper. As long as you known your rights and take the right steps to enforce them when violated, you should be fine Smile
Brookelorren
Posted: Saturday, August 04, 2012 11:39:24 PM
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ShirtVisions wrote:
Lets say you come up with a cool phrase (or word) no one else has used before, and you create a cool design around it. Lets say it becomes a little popular and you make some money off it on Zazzle. Then a year or two down the road, a wealthy corporation decides they like the phrase enough to turn it into a slogan for their company, hire an artist to create their own artistic design, then they trademark it and hire overpaid lawyers to send out cease and desist letters to everyone who is using it in the slightest way, including you and Zazzle. Now Zazzle has yanked your original phrase and design because of it. What do you do now? Tuck your tail between your legs and hide under the sofa? Or ARGUE about it?


That's when I go ask my husband (who is in his third year of law school) what is the best way to go about suing them, both for damages they caused, and for a share of the profits that they obviously got from stealing my design.

We've taken a large corporation to small claims court before. They billed us for several months worth of service after we cancelled our account with them. We won. If you are in the right and can prove it (which is certainly possible in the above case since Zazzle time stamps your designs) then there's a good chance that you're going to win, no matter how much they want to spend on lawyers. It's when the case isn't as clear cut that the expensive lawyers have the advantage.
Tink
Posted: Sunday, August 05, 2012 7:12:23 AM

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Copyright is automatic upon the creation of an original work. If you’ve written it or made it, you own it. That may be true, but unless you’ve registered the copyright, you lack the legal power you would have with copyright registration

The day's of mailing your prototypes certified to yourself is not held in high regard with the courts. Registering a copyright with the US Copyright Office is voluntary. Copyright protection exists without registration; however, your work must be registered before you can file a copyright infringement case in a US court. Registering copyright is beneficial because you cannot sue for copyright infringement without registration

As far as Zazzle they are not obligated to be your legal defense under any circumstance.

If someone you send a demand calls you on your rights,without the proof needed to take it to the demand you will be pretty much left with no legal defense if you even got it to a court.

I have known without a shadow of a doubt that I made a design and attached a non trademark phrase/ and also have read the protesting parties registered trademark\ and it clearly stated they did not have rights to my design just because I used the wording they claimed was theirs which is not, unless it was obvious it could be construed to be the same meaning place or thing, and yet lost because I did not have registered proof. Zazzle will not even go there unless it is for sure you own the item by legal means. And will remove the design. So do you want your hand called? Next time the person may just do that.

Maddison Lane
Posted: Sunday, August 05, 2012 12:28:56 PM
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Tink wrote:
Copyright is automatic upon the creation of an original work. If you’ve written it or made it, you own it. That may be true, but unless you’ve registered the copyright, you lack the legal power you would have with copyright registration




That's not true! You never (with one exception) have to register your copyright to exercise any power over it -- you automatically have the exact same powers you would have if you had registered.

Registering does certainly offer you an easier way to prove you are the copyright owner, but it is completely voluntary -- you still have all the "legal power" you would otherwise have, registration or not.

The only time you technically *have* to register is if and when you file a claim against someone else for copyright infringement, and in that case, registering after the infringement has no effect on your copyrights or your right to claim infringement.

And registration is certainly not the only proof of ownership -- in fact, you have to prove ownership to register a copyright, and the same you prove ownership to the USCO is the same way you would prove owner/authorship to anyone else without registration. And there is certainly always the possibility that someone who isn't actually the copyright holder registered, so registration by itself is not concrete proof of owner/authorship.

Is it a good idea to register? Absolutely! But it isn't required and it absolutely does NOT diminish your rights in any capacity if you choose not to!
DogsOnly
Posted: Sunday, August 05, 2012 2:49:09 PM
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Maddison Lane wrote:
The only time you technically *have* to register is if and when you file a claim against someone else for copyright infringement, and in that case, registering after the infringement has no effect on your copyrights or your right to claim infringement.
Your ability to bring a court action is virtually worthless if you don't register before infringement. You won't be able to afford it. Register before infringement and you can get statutory damages and attorney fees. Register after and you can't.
Tink
Posted: Sunday, August 05, 2012 5:11:13 PM

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Maddison Lane wrote:
Tink wrote:
Copyright is automatic upon the creation of an original work. If you’ve written it or made it, you own it. That may be true, but unless you’ve registered the copyright, you lack the legal power you would have with copyright registration




That's not true! You never (with one exception) have to register your copyright to exercise any power over it -- you automatically have the exact same powers you would have if you had registered.

Registering does certainly offer you an easier way to prove you are the copyright owner, but it is completely voluntary -- you still have all the "legal power" you would otherwise have, registration or not.

The only time you technically *have* to register is if and when you file a claim against someone else for copyright infringement, and in that case, registering after the infringement has no effect on your copyrights or your right to claim infringement.

And registration is certainly not the only proof of ownership -- in fact, you have to prove ownership to register a copyright, and the same you prove ownership to the USCO is the same way you would prove owner/authorship to anyone else without registration. And there is certainly always the possibility that someone who isn't actually the copyright holder registered, so registration by itself is not concrete proof of owner/authorship.

Is it a good idea to register? Absolutely! But it isn't required and it absolutely does NOT diminish your rights in any capacity if you choose not to!


Tink wrote:
Copyright is automatic upon the creation of an original work. If you’ve written it or made it, you own it. That may be true, but unless you’ve registered the copyright, you lack the legal power you would have with copyright registration




That's not true! You never (with one exception) have to register your copyright to exercise any power over it -- you automatically have the exact same powers you would have if you had registered.


It is absolutely true.. I guess you can do anything you want if you are willing to pay the price; my money would be on the person you challenge if you do not have it legally registered. And believe me if the wrong person finds out you do not have it, be prepared to spend a heck of a lot more than it would of cost you to register your work, and probably still lose if it were heard at all. Copyright and likes are such a tangled mess and need a huge overhaul. To put vainglory in front of a few dollars to protect your interest is just foolish in my opinion and the courts. Be careful who you demand and threaten they may just take you up on it.

If you can show me where it say's this is not the case I will stand corrected but I did not just come up with this or is it my opinion.
Lasting__Impressions
Posted: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:28:21 AM
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Joined: 8/8/2009
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This might help clear it up.
Registration of Copyright

This in particular.
"If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner."
Tink
Posted: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:37:48 AM

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Lasting__Impressions wrote:
This might help clear it up.
Registration of Copyright

This in particular.
"If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner."


Thank you for posting this. After attorneys fee's and court costs it could put you in the red as well as attorney fee's to collect the order. Getting a attorney without a registration would also be hard as there is no incentive. And we all know what defending yourself is thought of by the system a big strike against you if it would even be heard without one.
DeanJohnsonFineArt
Posted: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:29:27 PM
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Joined: 7/29/2011
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Location: San Francisco
Hello. I have a question about photography on Zazzle. I live in San Francisco and started taking photos of the popular tourist attractions, such as the cable cars (which are part of the San Francisco Municipal Railway), the Golden Gate Bridge and the Muni F Line (also part of the SFMR).

BUT, when I published my first Zazzle product for my "San Francisco Series," Zazzle pulled the item and told me I was in violation of intellectual property rights of Muni (which operates all of the transit lines above as well as the Muni metro).

Muni (the San Francisco Municipal Railway) is a publicly owned and operated system.

However, on another thread and on another Zazzler's items, I see photos of San Francisco attractions and Muni transit lines (a cable car, for example). I most recently saw these items on a pro-seller's store. So I'm wondering if pro-sellers are allowed to publish and sell these type items (which are supposedly in violation of intellectual property rights of Muni), but a non pro-seller is not?

To put it another way, when one has a higher-ranking on Zazzle (i.e. "pro-seller") are intellectual property rights less important to Zazzle?
Thanks for any info you can give me.

Tink
Posted: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:07:47 PM

Groups:

Joined: 3/23/2007
Posts: 1,711
Location: Brookings
DeanJohnsonFineArt wrote:
Hello. I have a question about photography on Zazzle. I live in San Francisco and started taking photos of the popular tourist attractions, such as the cable cars (which are part of the San Francisco Municipal Railway), the Golden Gate Bridge and the Muni F Line (also part of the SFMR).

BUT, when I published my first Zazzle product for my "San Francisco Series," Zazzle pulled the item and told me I was in violation of intellectual property rights of Muni (which operates all of the transit lines above as well as the Muni metro).

Muni (the San Francisco Municipal Railway) is a publicly owned and operated system.

However, on another thread and on another Zazzler's items, I see photos of San Francisco attractions and Muni transit lines (a cable car, for example). I most recently saw these items on a pro-seller's store. So I'm wondering if pro-sellers are allowed to publish and sell these type items (which are supposedly in violation of intellectual property rights of Muni), but a non pro-seller is not?

To put it another way, when one has a higher-ranking on Zazzle (i.e. "pro-seller") are intellectual property rights less important to Zazzle?
Thanks for any info you can give me.



There is no exception for anyone regardless of seller level when something is a copyright infringement. With the amount of stores there is no way to police the millions of designs put on products. When it is brought to the attention of Zazzle they act on it. Anything more you should discus with Zazzle concerning what was pulled for clarification.
Beachwalker
Posted: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:16:12 PM
 Zazzle Proseller
Groups: ProSeller

Joined: 4/15/2008
Posts: 874
Location: Here Today, Elsewhere Tomorrow
DeanJohnsonFineArt wrote:
Hello. I have a question about photography on Zazzle. I live in San Francisco and started taking photos of the popular tourist attractions, such as the cable cars (which are part of the San Francisco Municipal Railway), the Golden Gate Bridge and the Muni F Line (also part of the SFMR).

BUT, when I published my first Zazzle product for my "San Francisco Series," Zazzle pulled the item and told me I was in violation of intellectual property rights of Muni (which operates all of the transit lines above as well as the Muni metro).

Muni (the San Francisco Municipal Railway) is a publicly owned and operated system.

However, on another thread and on another Zazzler's items, I see photos of San Francisco attractions and Muni transit lines (a cable car, for example). I most recently saw these items on a pro-seller's store. So I'm wondering if pro-sellers are allowed to publish and sell these type items (which are supposedly in violation of intellectual property rights of Muni), but a non pro-seller is not?

To put it another way, when one has a higher-ranking on Zazzle (i.e. "pro-seller") are intellectual property rights less important to Zazzle?
Thanks for any info you can give me.



Tink already answered your question, but this might be informative. This muni symbol is trademarked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SFMuni_Worm.svg

Anytime you wonder, just do a search on the term and the word trademark and see what pops up. It's often surprising!
DeanJohnsonFineArt
Posted: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:53:13 PM
 Zazzle Proseller
Groups: ProSeller

Joined: 7/29/2011
Posts: 1,305
Location: San Francisco
Thank you. That's helpful. The items I'm talking about already sold from a pro-seller's store. That seller sold over 30 items of the cable car image. I thought Zazzle would have caught that (with a filter of some sort) when they sold them. It took Zazzle only hours to take mine down for just barely showing the side and front of a vintage F-Line car with no Muni symbol on it at all. Oh well, thanks.

Tink
Posted: Monday, August 06, 2012 8:00:46 PM

Groups:

Joined: 3/23/2007
Posts: 1,711
Location: Brookings
DeanJohnsonFineArt wrote:
Thank you. That's helpful. The items I'm talking about already sold from a pro-seller's store. That seller sold over 30 items of the cable car image. I thought Zazzle would have caught that (with a filter of some sort) when they sold them. It took Zazzle only hours to take mine down for just barely showing the side and front of a vintage F-Line car with no Muni symbol on it at all. Oh well, thanks.



When you get a letter from Zazzle it does not always mean its the picture, it could be a tag or something in the description. Sometimes its a simple as removing a word or phrase so maybe contact them for more details. I have gotten several and its not always what you think, their format letter is the same usually for everyone so maybe it was not the actual picture.
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